All humans are evil greedy bastards

[Nemesix]

Haha, well someone i once talked to actually brought up a very very good argument, that is quite difficult to refute once putting a lot of thought into it. He said that all humans are basically evil (kinda along the lines of what thomas hobbes believed) and EVERY single thing that we do is based on greed and self preservation. Why do we work, to make money... and i can go on and on but im sure u can think up some other stuff. Now people may just say "well, what about if you care about someone and buy them flowers or something nice" that is still based on greed because you want something from them. Even if someone is dying and you cry for them and wish that they wont die, that is still based on greed, because the reason you dont want them to die is because you would be sad and lonely and you dont want to miss that person once they are gone. Can anyone think up anything that is not based upon greed? i dont think that it is possible :) we are all evil

[ComfortablyNumb]

The idea you're talking about is called psychological egoism, though rather than call it greed it says we are motivated by what is in our own best interest. I feel that it does generally hold true, though saying that we are motivated by greed and are evil is an extremely negative way of putting the idea that humans almost always will do what is best for themselves. I just fail to see how doing things based on greed(=self-interest) and self-preservation would make any being evil, rather than rational.

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

Recently at work a man had ordered a huge amount of food for his wife and 2 daughters. When he came to pay for it he had his 12 month daughter in his arm and his other 3 year old running around.

He could not carry the tray to his table easy,so he asked his daughter to and she tried but couldn't. Than all of a sudden a litttle 8yr old boy appears from no where and offers to carry it. My mouth dropped! this kid had been in line and was waiting than offered to help my mate out.

I was stunned, i belived there was no good left in kids these days but that part showed me.
Ended up givin him 1.25l bottle of drink large chips and a free large KFC Potatao and gravy.
All he ordered was small chips. I had didnt tell him y but told my manager an she went an asked him about it and ended up giving this 8yr old boy $50 credit at any KFC store.

Its all true. So u tell me Nemesis.

[ComfortablyNumb]

From the point of view of egoism, it could be said that the reason the kid helped the man with his tray was because doing so would make the kid feel good about himself (the fact that he thinks he is doing it just to be nice is irrelevent b/c the outcome- which, in this case is very forseeable, is making himself feel good, and, in egoism, whether or not the kid intended just to be nice or to make himself feel good is not the issue, but rather it serves to explain what is not what ought to be.) in effect, ragardless of the kid's intentions, the act made him feel good about himself and can therefore be considered as himself acting in his own self-interest. Thats the reason I said Nemeis shouldn't refer to it as greediness, b/c, though technically correct, the connotation attached to the word makes the entire concept sound bad.

[sabotage]

What about people who've attained enlightenment?

[Armalite]

Yes yes you can't escape the self-interest motivating all actions, blah blah. You haven't convinced me that this is morally wrong. I pretty much fall in right behind Numb on this one.

[headcase]

Damn those selfish genes!

Your opinion (and that of Dawkins' book) is reliant on the idea of individual-selection over group-selection though. Personally, I think both apply in reality. In the face of such complexity, I can never understand why people believe life works in straight lines.

I don't think you can put all human actions under such a pessimistic umbrella, and even if you can, who cares? Maybe the self-gratifying reward is an evolutionary development to encourage such altruism. Always look on the bright side of life.

[Stone]

I would die to save the life of my girlfriend or son. Is that selfish/greedy? I don't think so...

What about the volunteer firemen who save peoples lives everyday and don't get paid a penny? Etc...

[odin_dax]

Haha, well someone i once talked to actually brought up a very very good argument, that is quite difficult to refute once putting a lot of thought into it. He said that all humans are basically evil (kinda along the lines of what thomas hobbes believed) and EVERY single thing that we do is based on greed and self preservation. Why do we work, to make money... and i can go on and on but im sure u can think up some other stuff. Now people may just say "well, what about if you care about someone and buy them flowers or something nice" that is still based on greed because you want something from them. Even if someone is dying and you cry for them and wish that they wont die, that is still based on greed, because the reason you dont want them to die is because you would be sad and lonely and you dont want to miss that person once they are gone. Can anyone think up anything that is not based upon greed? i dont think that it is possible :) we are all evil

Well, I'd argue against the premise all humans are basically evil and that self-preservation and greed are the roots of all action. I'd further argue that the two terms are interchangeable in this discussion, just for the sake of arguing. :-)

How is preservation evil or selfish? Why is not wanting to die greedy? There's a line, not everything we need or want is greedy, selfishness or evil. Water and food are essential. Animals without higher-reasoning have the instinct to seek these things. Self-preservation, I'd argue, is the opposite of greediness, since one person in a society provides good and services, money and added security to the whole.

People work for a number of reasons, but it's mainly to survive in a society. Why live on the street to prove charity? That's essentially what you're saying, and it's the dumbest thing I've ever read. Think the opposite of greed, charity. How is it charitable for one to be a beggar on the street? Replace all your greed statements with the opposite and you'll find none of them make sense. Therefore, your entire position is based on flawed reasoning.

Another point, not wanting someone else to die. What if the person doesn't want to die either? Is that still being selfish?

Also, your conclusion is unsupported. We are not all evil, even if we were all greedy and/or selfish.

[Armalite]

Damn those selfish genes!

Your opinion (and that of Dawkins' book) is reliant on the idea of individual-selection over group-selection though. Personally, I think both apply in reality. In the face of such complexity, I can never understand why people believe life works in straight lines.

I don't think you can put all human actions under such a pessimistic umbrella, and even if you can, who cares? Maybe the self-gratifying reward is an evolutionary development to encourage such altruism. Always look on the bright side of life.

I would die to save the life of my girlfriend or son. Is that selfish/greedy? I don't think so...

What about the volunteer firemen who save peoples lives everyday and don't get paid a penny? Etc...


A perfect example. :biggthump: Evolution certainly wouldn't favor those who allow their mates and offspring to perish would it? And since humans are social by nature, an instinctive tendency to value cooperation, charity and such would increase the survivability of each of the societies members. So yes, a group dynamic is involved, but no, it changes nothing.

[M_Rommel]

Psychological egoism is unfalsifiable.

[M_Rommel]

GD it, my thing got cut off.

My point was that I've heard quite a bit about psychological egoism, and it doesn't seem like it can be falsified. If you give to a charity, the retort is that you did it because you enjoyed it, it made you feel good (selfish motive).

Maybe this would be an example of a truly selfless act: a dude jumping on a grenade to save fellow soldiers....I don't see how this could be seen as a selfish act.

[headcase]

No doubt he loved those soldiers as family though. It's the same principle.

[Æhµ]

in nature, a baby raptor chick will strangulate its sibling all so it would have more food and a better chance at survival. Is that evil?

It may be that all living things have a degree of "survival at all costs" instinct which can be seen, in humans at least, as an act of evil, but in the grand scheme is a part of our survival mechanism and a far more important one for the species.

Modern humans have grown beyond the need to worry over survival of the species, but these instincts still lead us to acquire material goods. In excess, its greed.

Racism is also given a bad rap, but in the development of the species, it had an important role in the preservation of the family unit or clan when faced with competing clans. Its healthy to a point, but taken to an extreme its evil (Hitler being the classic example).

There's a little bit of evil, greed, racism in all of us, its part of our survival mechanism. But we also have the ability to overcome these, which allows our societies to coexist, which could be the basis for the argument that humans, more than all other animals, are not evil.

By the way, what is the definition of evil? The Judeo- Christian notion of evil can be countered by pointing out the story of Joshua, who was commanded by God to slaughter every last man, woman, and child of the Canaanite city of Maqqedhah. Is murder not evil? Or it only evil when you lack God's permission?

[Lord Indie]

in nature, a baby raptor chick will strangulate its sibling all so it would have more food and a better chance at survival. Is that evil?

It may be that all living things have a degree of "survival at all costs" instinct which can be seen, in humans at least, as an act of evil, but in the grand scheme is a part of our survival mechanism and a far more important one for the species.

Modern humans have grown beyond the need to worry over survival of the species, but these instincts still lead us to acquire material goods. In excess, its greed.

Racism is also given a bad rap, but in the development of the species, it had an important role in the preservation of the family unit or clan when faced with competing clans. Its healthy to a point, but taken to an extreme its evil (Hitler being the classic example).

There's a little bit of evil, greed, racism in all of us, its part of our survival mechanism. But we also have the ability to overcome these, which allows our societies to coexist, which could be the basis for the argument that humans, more than all other animals, are not evil.

By the way, what is the definition of evil? The Judeo- Christian notion of evil can be countered by pointing out the story of Joshua, who was commanded by God to slaughter every last man, woman, and child of the Canaanite city of Maqqedhah. Is murder not evil? Or it only evil when you lack God's permission?

I think evil especially in the Judeo-Christian notion means being cruel, unkind basically the reverse of the virtues.
Evil is hardly universal. Like Hitler in your example probably believe that killing all the Jews is the good thing to do. Morality is seriously a vast and hard topic to discuss which is why philosophers, scientist and the clergy still cannot agree on what is really good.
For instance, Nietzsche indicated that the Catholics do their supposed altruistic and self-defeating acts because it is a step closer to salvation. Isn't it that is also kind of "greed" as to what OP is pointing since it will benefit you in the future. But sure I believe there are people out there who will help without asking anything in return in this life or if there is next.
A good example of an act that might not be motivated by greed is when a person instantly jump into a grenade thrown into a mass of people he do not know. There is little time to think what would happen since the grenade might go off. However, I guess we can never truly know if the person really did that sincerely or at least he just wanted to be known even though he is already dead.
Regarding the kid who helped the dad in this thread, someone stated that if you feel good about helping it means that you help because of your desire to feel good - which was said to be greedy. So if that's the case, we should help people and feel bad about it because it is the "good"? Is the feeling of good, ironically bad?
I would like to type more but I cannot explain some of them. This is a good discussion.