The Uselessness of Cloning

[Nemesix]

Well im still a little buzzed from being high last night and while i was taking a shower i was getting some interesting ideas coming into my head. One of these was about cloning. Lets say we perfect cloning 100%. there are no flaws in the baby, we can even go as far as saying that we have perfected its physical self so that the clone will never get cancer ect. (we will use einstein as our example) its my belief that even after we have perfected cloning, there is a high chance that the new child will not be the same as the prodigy genious of the past. this idea i linked to how we are all products of our enviroments which i believe in 100%. If we get a little einstein and introduce him to technology such as a computer, he would probably be just like any other kid. not coming up with quantum physics, just enjoying running around blasting things. if we clone hitler, do you think that he will be a miniature jew killer? i think not. he will be like any other kid. our ideologies are created over time from many years of seeing the correct and accepted views of society. society shapes us into who we are, up to the point that decides whether we will be a genious or a simple thug making his way in a corrupt world.

when i say that cloning is useless, i mean only to the extent of attempting to recreate the geniouses of the past. there will always be other benefits to it such as organ harvesting or creating a group of clones who will be slaves for the wealthy, or even using them as soldiers in our armies. (so on and so forth)

[davey_crockshit]

genetic differences make a difference. extreme example: take a puppy and a baby. raise them exactly the same. the puppy after a mere five years will be a much better hunter and tracker than that lame-assed baby will ever be.

i do agree with most of your thesis though. hitler was taught to hate jews and enabled in his rise to power by his society. einsteins theories came about because being a patent clerk was so damn boring. maybe the penchant for elaborate daydreams they both shared was inborn, but given other outlets, those tendencies could have manifested themselves quite differently.

[Nemesix]

who knows, a cloned einstein could be a new age hitler

[odin_dax]

Right...

You CAN'T "clone" memories.

Clones won't turn out the same. I point you all in the direction of the subject epi-genome. Good day.

[headcase]

A simple glance in the direction of selective breeding will prove this notion incorrect. From the earliest days of organised farming, people realised that if you breed a large bull with a large cow, you get large offspring. While the reasons for this are a little complex (look up quantitative trait loci if you wish), it's the passing on of genetic information that counts.

How this applies to the human mind is more difficult to assess because when you're looking at parents and their offspring, then environment also plays a part (which, of course, I'm not denying). But I think a little common sense will give us a good idea about what we want to know. Like I've said elsewhere; a lot of doctors have children who go on to become doctors themselves. If a child is at the bottom of their class, their limits seem to be reflected in their parents.

Now before people start getting nature and nurture confused, let me explain the difference. Genetics give you your physical groundwork. Your biological foundation. Those cows had the genetic foundation that caused them to become large. Einstein had the genetic foundation to gave him a great mind. How they developed after that depends on their environment also, but only within the limits of their genes.

For example, if that large cow suffers famine in it's youth, it might now achieve its potential. If Einstein is raised in a different environment, then maybe he'll be a great doctor instead of a physicist. Or maybe his form of intelligence was geared specifically towards physics; I don't understand the human mind or its genetic potential, I can only look at its everyday manifestations. And that manifestation shows that a persons genetic foundation plays a massive part in the person they become. Not 100% entirely, but crucially.

Memories have nothing to do with genetics.

[Esophagus]

How exactly does this render cloning useless? I won't bother arguing with your opinion, I think headcase did an alright job of that, but I'd like to know why you think this is a downfall of cloning?

As far as I know, the point behind cloning has never been to duplicate humans in order to raise the population. The amount of sex we all have takes care of that for us. Cloning is there to help on the medical and scientific front. For example, organ farming. I will never have to bother leaving a relative with one kidney if I have the ability to just clone their liver and replace it with mine. I got cancer in my lungs? Okay, time to switch them out. Thats one of plenty of ways it could be used. You are right though, there is nature and nurture, and nurture is something you can't replace. I'm just wondering who told you anyone wanted to? Or am I in the wrong here?

[King Guitarist]

What you need to think about is that if you clone yourself, it will grow up to be another human being. Think of it like having an identical twin, if you get lung cancer, they're not going to let you kill your twin just so you can live. Maybe in the future it will be acceptaple, but the society we live in now, you cant just go "organ farming".

[Esophagus]

What you need to think about is that if you clone yourself, it will grow up to be another human being. Think of it like having an identical twin, if you get lung cancer, they're not going to let you kill your twin just so you can live. Maybe in the future it will be acceptaple, but the society we live in now, you cant just go "organ farming".
Organ farming doesn't mean letting a clone live until you need a part. It means cloning specific parts. I wouldn't clone me, I would clone my lung.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

Well, as you stated, cloning is NOT completely useless, which defeats the name of the thread, which might have been aptly named "Flaws of Cloning" or something along those lines. But I am not here to debate about that or pick about irrelevant matters.

Cloning in itself is the replication of the body or a part of it, not the mind, which you have realized by now. I'm sure in some wild future, if we don't blow ourselves to kingdom come, we shall come to a more complete understanding of the bioelectrical organ called the brain.

This understanding of which shall lead us to develop technology to transfer experience and knowledge from one clone to the next.

I don't believe in God, but once man develops these technologies for himself, man shall cease to become mere man, and become a godly being which even death itself will not defeat.
We will be gods.

Keep a clone of yourself in cryogenic storage. Have an accident? No problem, just make sure you have someone/something to administer your knowledge and memory to your NEW self.

In an almost comical fashion, life and death itself can be compared to a video game.


"Oh shit man, I DIED!"

"It's all cool though, respawn's coming in a few seconds.."


From what I understand, the human being can be much alikened to a machine with sensors and a superbly advanced data processing system. Cloning a human is like making a model of the same machine. Just because you have two machines which are of the same model does NOT mean that it will have the same data which the other has accumulated over time.

Common sense, really.

Now THERE's some sci-fi shit to think about...:wink:

[7eleven mafia]

there are many benefits and many negatives to the act of cloning. the benefits of cloning can only reach so far. benefits of cloning include organs for people who are sick and are dying but the negative to that is what if someone got the ability to clone organs what if they try to clone living people and their are multiples of people walking around and going unchecked, and as far as cloning people of the past is concerned all the enviroments of cloning a person of the past would have to be brought up in the same enviroment as they were originally brought up in which is not possible due to the fact that we have the history but what we dont have is the exact conditions that they were brought up in so, in retro spect trying to clone einstien and make him into the same genious that he was is not possible due to X factors or unknown factors that can completly change somthing different, so in theory it is not possible to create anything the same as it was in the past into the same thing in the present.

[crazy white guy]

periods, they do more than just make men depressed.

learn how to use them.

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

periods, they do more than just make men depressed.

learn how to use them.

If it bleeds for a week and dosn't die you cant trust it.

[Mr.A]

Hear me out on this...

Clones for slaves, slave labour.

:dot:

[Th0r]

*Sigh.*

[RoundElephant]

Hear me out on this...

Clones for slaves, slave labour.

:dot:

That wouldn't work, there would be civil rights movements for clones. And legally, a human clone would probably be 100% human.

[Pimpin4Life30]

Clones could be used to fight in wars.Plans simple brain wash them and besides who cares about clones any ways? There just a replica of you! Also if you were to clone einstein wouldnt he have the same brain power as einstein?

[RoundElephant]

Clones could be used to fight in wars.Plans simple brain wash them and besides who cares about clones any ways? There just a replica of you! Also if you were to clone einstein wouldnt he have the same brain power as einstein?

Not necessarily, environment factors into someone's intelligence also. For example fish, consumed by pregos, makes their child smarter when born. Also cells can express themselves in different ways, look at these two cat clones hxxp://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-01-21-cloned-cats_x.htm they don't really look alike.

[Mr.A]

Not necessarily, environment factors into someone's intelligence also. For example fish, consumed by pregos, makes their child smarter when born. Also cells can express themselves in different ways, look at these two cat clones hxxp://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-01-21-cloned-cats_x.htm they don't really look alike.

Interesting...

cats are not humans though.

[RoundElephant]

Interesting...

cats are not humans though.

The same genetic principles still apply, a clone of you created with current technology is not an exact copy.

[Pimpin4Life30]

Could it be possible in the future to make an exact copy?

[.VX]

No. Only if they were both raised in the same place, and the same things happened to both of them, which is impossible. There's also an element of random-ness in a lot of brain functions.

[thief]

No. Only if they were both raised in the same place, and the same things happened to both of them, which is impossible. There's also an element of random-ness in a lot of brain functions.

.VX has a very valid point. Because it would depend on the environmental factors. No exposure to advanced math or books along with having to live out the real Einsteins life to the tee, along with the time in which the new clone Einstein is now living in... he would be a different person with a different personality. His life also would have to be "cloned" or recreated = impossible.

Of course he might have more genetic ability to become smarter than a "normal" person. For example... if you cloned Dean Karnazes (if you dont know him just google) the clone of course would have the same potential to become one of the best long distance runners in the world because of his genetic ability or potential but as a person, it is very unlikey he would be the same.

[Æhµ]

Look up "telomeres and cloning" in Google, you'll see cloning isn't all it's cracked up to be. Cloned beings (animal or human) wouldn't age the same as the original, the clones cells have begun to age before it is even born - in short it will not live a full life cycle.

[thief]

But when they (Scientists) figure out why the telomere lengths are shorter than normal, cloning will be much more successful because they MIGHT be able to correct that flaw in todays cloning methods.