first chem project

[crazy white guy]

I'm halfway through making iron oxide (electrolysis, 50g ish)

and am going to make me some thermite. I'll put up pics (and hopefully a vid)

does anyone have a good way of making aluminum powder?

I don't feel like using grindings

[Th0r]

Argh, beloved Thermite...

Firstly why the hell are you using the electricity method. It is a waste of energy. Get a fish tank, fill it up with 5.5 litres of water and put every piece of Iron you can find into it...

Aluminium Powder can be purchased with relative ease. Grindings are fine as long as you get it down to powder level.

So have you thought about how you will ignite your Thermite?

[.VX]

does anyone have a good way of making aluminum powder?


Aluminium Foil and a Blender?

[Th0r]

Aluminium Foil and a Blender?

Just in case you were being serious it doesn't work.

There are plenty of places that will tell you how to make some half decent Aluminium Powder. Search.

[.VX]

Ok, thanks. I honestly have no idea about this kind of thing and was just guessing.

[Th0r]

Unless the blender can really grind things up it wont work. Although however I got some really fine powder [Mixed in with some really crappy bits, it needed to be sieved out] from filing a block of foil from when I needed some powder the other day...

[torcher]

Unless the blender can really GRIND things up it wont work. Although however I got some really fine powder [Mixed in with some really crappy bits, it needed to be sieved out] from filing a block of foil from when I needed some powder the other day...

blenders will NOT work for this. just spend the few dollars it costs to buy it online. 600 mesh is the best ive used. anything over 300 mesh should be good for thermite though.

[Th0r]

blenders will NOT work for this. just spend the few dollars it costs to buy it online. 600 mesh is the best ive used. anything over 300 mesh should be good for thermite though.

Thats what I said.

Various sources have told me that 600 Mesh [Videos and the like] will work well.

[crazy white guy]

So have you thought about how you will ignite your Thermite?

yep. im going to use a propane torch that i used to fix my shower a few weeks back

and if thats not hot enough i'll rig up a oxygen-propane torch.

[Th0r]

Thought about using Mg? [Magnesium], as that is more reliable for igniting Thermite for the first time.

You will need a piece of ribbon two inches or more to ensure ignition of the Thermite...

It can be easily obtained from your Chemistry class. Recently I stole a lot of the stuff from a teacher...

Oh the fun we will have on November the fifth.

[.VX]

blenders will NOT work for this.
Is it some sort of heat issue, or what?

Although however I got some really fine powder [Mixed in with some really crappy bits, it needed to be sieved out] from filing a block of foil from when I needed some powder the other day...

Yeah, if I were to make some, I'd probably use that method too.

[crazy white guy]

update: thermite didnt ignite

im pretty sure the propane torch wasn't hot enough. But im not sure

I can post pics and vids of me failing if anyone wants =)

[Th0r]

If it is a problem with the Thermite it will be with the Aluminium.

You should also use Magnesium for the ignition.

[death11284]

What kind of Al powder did you use? By the way a very cheap source that I've found to be very reliable for igniting thermite is sparklers..what's left of them, I do believe they are banned in most places though.

I've managed to ignite it with a propane torch after 20-25 seconds, but it really is a bad idea..

If you only want a small amount of Al powder etchasketches have rather high quality Aluminum powder in them, however it sounds like you're going for a large batch.

In any case..grinding/ball milling is the very best option, it's easy, and produces large quantities of high-quality Al powder. Look for the instructions on google, or PM me, it's very easy to do..and won't cost very much.


Now, this is probably a bad idea, but has anyone looked into using sulfur to lower the ignition temperature? This works for BP/FP combinations, but the propagation rates are so different that it probably won't work..but if anyone has tried it I'm curious. I personally don't really see the point in thermite, but I loved it when I was like 14-15.

[Th0r]

Sparklers do work well...

But you do have to get long ones... Tell me Death do they contain Magnesium?

Thermite is fun, when you are a kid and other bits of Chemistry are a bit too difficult for an average teenager. But it is better to have Thermite and actually have an application for it to be used in. Then you will see its true potential.

[torcher]

Is it some sort of heat issue, or what?



Yeah, if I were to make some, I'd probably use that method too.



no, you're trying to make a powder, the aluminum has to basically be ground into a powder not cut.

[crazy white guy]

i used a high speed dremel to make the aluminum shavings then powdered it a bit farther

and I have not yet used magnesium ribbon in science class

im assuming that im not going to for a while

[.VX]

no, you're trying to make a powder, the aluminum has to basically be ground into a powder not cut.

Ok, thanks. I might borrow a filer from school and try to make some. If I can be fucked.

[Th0r]

and I have not yet used magnesium ribbon in science class

im assuming that im not going to for a while

Your school must really suck chemistry wise.

I've been lucky to attend schools that show interest in Chemistry and want to imprint the interest upon its pupils...

The first experiment I ever did at high school involved Magnesium Ribbon. Your school must really suck.

And .VX, you maybe interested to know that a circular file will best suit your needs. Although the great thing about my school was that a Design Tech teacher actually gave me Aluminium Powder once. Due to the fact it was left over from a project I was involved in. I also get free Solder because of my electronics class :)...

[crazy white guy]

I'm filtering the stuff i got from my second electrolysis attempt right now using a coffee filter and a Folgers can.

I'm only re-doing this because im not 100% sure that it was iron oxide that i got from it and not something else.

also i'm planning to either get a container of 600 mesh aluminum powder when my ebay experiences start paying off or I'll make a ball mill as my next project.

anyone have any suggestions to what i can do to make it more exiting?

[Th0r]

Firstly you can tell if the result is Iron Oxide, as the powder is a brown/red colour, plus it stains clothing but it is easy to get out.

Use Iron nails for your electrode method, or something that is already rusting...

That way you guarantee the and product is Iron oxide.

As for more exciting, get a huge piece of thick metal and place the Thermite on top of the piece of metal. See if the Thermite can burn through it. Also get some long Magnesium ribbon to really add to the effect.

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

Also get some long Magnesium ribbon to really add to the effect.

Been looking for this. Where can i get it besides stealing it from my fathers lab.

[Th0r]

Been looking for this. Where can i get it besides stealing it from my fathers lab.

I believe I have seen it on eBay and in hardware shops. Ribbon can also be purchased from a chemistry whole seller.

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

Nice. Thanks, will be looking on ebay.

[Th0r]

I got all of mine from school. Several foot long reels of Magnesium ribbon about a year ago. Unfortunately Nox I have no idea what so ever what Magnesium would be sold under. All I know is my dad told me last year he saw loads of Mg ribbon in a DIY/hardware store...

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

yer dads a science teacher at the local highschool.

[davey_crockshit]

what is the magnesium ribbon used for? corrosion control on aluminum is the only possible use i can think of offhand... (will tell me where to look next time i'm in the hardware store. plumbing, angle iron, paint, etc)

[Th0r]

yer dads a science teacher at the local highschool.

Lucky.

Davey, I have no idea, but someone mentioned how Sparklers do the job...

[crazy white guy]

heres some pics

anyone see some obvious problems?

iron oxide (http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r286/vee_door/internets%20people/IMG_0405.jpg)

alluminum (http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r286/vee_door/internets%20people/IMG_0406.jpg)

[Th0r]

The Iron Oxide is in clumps, you want it to be completely powder. No clumps...

And the Aluminium. Maybe you need a better picture, but I am convinced that the powder is not thin enough. Re-Upload a different picture...

[torcher]

actually the rust looks ok. maybe needs to be put into a mortar and pestel for a minute or two.

the aluminum looks like it was just chopped up. try grinding it for a while with the mortar and pestel. maybe you'll have a better result.

[THErAPIST]

Aluminum powder:
-flake works better than spherical
-300 mesh and up

Ball mill is the best way to make it... Throw some aluminum foil in a ball mill with some ceramic milling media. You can also sand down a soft piece of aluminum with wet or dry sand paper in a pail of water. 400 grit or so. The water helps to keep the aluminum from getting caught in the paper

Iron oxide:
Good lord.. enough with the nails. There are so many kinds of nails with so many coatings it's not even funny. Go for some steel wool.... Uncoated, and can rust over pretty quickly. click HERE (http://frogfot.com/synthesis/ironoxide.html)

As for ignition... You really don't need a long sparkler. Any sparkler will do. Hell leave the powder on the metal stick or break a few up and put em in a film can with a piece of fuse going into it. Set the film can on top of your powder. Sparklers are considered "safe and sane" meaning that they are novelties... They can even be shipped in the friggan mail. Magnesium ribbon is restricted in some areas due to the fact that it has so real use other than trying to start a fire.

Mix aluminum to iron oxide 40% to 60% by weight. About half and half by volume if your iron oxide is like baking powder and your aluminum is 600 mesh flake or higher. It's forgiving as long as you get your amounts relatively close. Try to compress it some what. Don't put it into a container or it can build up pressure and throw slag (molten iron) a good long ways when the canister finaly burns through. Try to compress it some though and it'll burn longer (a little bit).

there are videos and pictures where college chemistry classes put thermite into a clay planter and when the thermite burns molten iron drips through the drain hole in the bottom of the planter. google that up

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

Lucky.

Sometimes lol.

[Th0r]

I can imagine so. Every time you wanted to acquire Chemicals your dad could see right through your excuses...

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

Yes and being a agriculture teacher dosnt help with pot plants lol. Try tellin that man there tomatoes/mint lol.

[crazy white guy]

update:

the thermite worked with only one little flaw

only about 80% of the thermite burned. My hypothesis is that not enough oxygen got to it or it didnt stay hot enough to keep the reaction going

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

Aftermath pics? Sorry im a pyro.

[Th0r]

Yea, it would be nice to see what our advice got you...

[crazy white guy]

ill post in a few minutes when its all uploaded

The most recent ignition was about 5 cubic centimeters

im hoping to have a 500cc ignition by the end of the month

[crazy white guy]

pic of the thermite container and torch (http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r286/vee_door/IMG_0448.jpg)

closer picture of the container (http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r286/vee_door/IMG_0449.jpg)

the slag that blocked the reaction (http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r286/vee_door/IMG_0450.jpg)

[thief]

What Iron oxide is better does anyone know... Red Fe2O3 or Black Fe3O4?

[Th0r]

I don't know which is better but I'm 99% certain Red Iron Oxide is the most commonly used, if that's any help?

[thief]

Ok cool thanks. I dont have the spare time to make the powders and iron oxide so im gonna buy off the net. Its very cheap... it is only rust after all. haha

[crazy white guy]

Black is the one you want. You can buy it under the name "German dark iron oxide"

The only difference I know of between the two is their combining capacities are different. One is FeO where the other is FeO3 or FeO2. the last two are the better since they donate more oxygen to the reaction.

The valence of Iron is +2,3,4,6 and Oxygen's is -2. That means it can combine either 1:1 O/Fe, 3:2, 2:1 or 3:1. The more oxygen, the better.

[thief]

Ok, I will go with the black so. The black is only a small bit more expensive so its cool. Happy days.