Why Vote

[DominoKett]

Can any of you come up with arguments of why an American should not vote

[Nemesix]

if your from florida or black, because your vote wont matter. jm ^.^. to be truthful, there are not really any reasons not to vote, unless your against democracy. When the united states was founded, the forefathers of our country gave the right to vote to the people, taking the chance that overall, the majority of the population are not illiterate people, but citizens who can choose a great leader to help further the countries prosperity. by not voting, you are waisting the right that millions of people have died for trying to obtain and protect, freedom and freedom from oppresion. I say vote for the candidate who you think will make the best leader. it never hurts to voice your opinion even if it seems inconsequential such as a vote, because those votes add up.

[DominoKett]

well im arguing against voting in america for a writing class and so far the reasons ive come up with are:

Bush lost the popular vote against gore and still became president, we are living in a republic not a democracy.

people chose Bush to be president and now pretty much everyone hates him so obviously votes are made uneducated

in the present election weve only had 3 candidates to choose from the whole time ,assuming you want to vote with someone with a chance of winning: Hilary, Obama, McCaine

Media has so much power over who you vote for by the way the portray candates: Hilary as evil, Obama as breath of fresh air, and McCaine is like someone with old fashion values thats just kinda thrown in there for the republicans.

and list one example where a vote has mattered. for every time a republican decides not to vote theres going to be a democrat that just as easily doesnt vote.

people say vote to make a difference but how are you making a difference if your doing the same thing everyone else is

why vote and act like you know whats really going on with everything in politics, nobody does so spare me the "whoever 08" pride bumper sticker. I should get a bumper sticker thats says "who the fucks asking" cause i dont care who youre voting for

also how do people claim to be expressing their opinion through there vote if they are just votign for the same person as their mommy and daddy

so i know some of these points suck but i would appreciate criticism, arguments against voting, and arguments for voting

[odin_dax]

well im arguing against voting in america for a writing class and so far the reasons ive come up with are:

Bush lost the popular vote against gore and still became president, we are living in a republic not a democracy.

We've been living in a Federative Republic since ratification of the Constitution. We do have a democracy, but it's not an absolute democracy. Our nation was founded with the cooperation of independent colonies forming together, states. The way the system was designed by the Founding Fathers was to ensure all US states had a voice in the democratic process. The House by population, two senators for every state, and the electoral college to prevent mass voting -- ie, focusing on large cities without consideration for farmers, rural dwellers etc. It's a very good system for our large nation.
In short, your point isn't really valid.

people chose Bush to be president and now pretty much everyone hates him so obviously votes are made uneducated

Votes are based on the interpretation of information, what the media portrays. In fact, this isn't a whole lot of difference between what gets done under a Democratic president or a Republican president, only the talk is different. Are people uneducated? Yes, many voters aren't away of the issues they vote for, only what issues sound like, what the headline sentence of the bill, measure or bond is. Do I agree with that? No. I read over everything, personally.
It goes both way, some people vote purely democrat or purely republican based on a single issue, regardless. Abortion, automatic democrat. Taxes, republican. So on and so on...


in the present election weve only had 3 candidates to choose from the whole time ,assuming you want to vote with someone with a chance of winning: Hilary, Obama, McCaine

Media has so much power over who you vote for by the way the portray candates: Hilary as evil, Obama as breath of fresh air, and McCaine is like someone with old fashion values thats just kinda thrown in there for the republicans.

Well, you are qualifying votes. What's the point of voting if you don't vote for the person you want? Even if he doesn't stand a chance and you vote for someone you don't want, that just supports the system we have today.
Obama is charismatic, but little experience and ultra liberal. Hilary is evil. McCain isn't old fashioned, but he isn't the most likable person.


and list one example where a vote has mattered. for every time a republican decides not to vote theres going to be a democrat that just as easily doesnt vote.

people say vote to make a difference but how are you making a difference if your doing the same thing everyone else is

One vote does make a difference! Google "does one vote make a difference?" or something along those lines. I found many examples when I first looked it up back in 2000.


why vote and act like you know whats really going on with everything in politics, nobody does so spare me the "whoever 08" pride bumper sticker. I should get a bumper sticker thats says "who the fucks asking" cause i dont care who youre voting for

also how do people claim to be expressing their opinion through there vote if they are just votign for the same person as their mommy and daddy

so i know some of these points suck but i would appreciate criticism, arguments against voting, and arguments for voting


The rest just seems like baseless opinion and doesn't support any argument at all, especially an academic paper. Actually, almost the whole post, but I still wanted to make some points. Hope you learned something about the American political system.

[DominoKett]

We've been living in a Federative Republic since ratification of the Constitution. We do have a democracy, but it's not an absolute democracy. Our nation was founded with the cooperation of independent colonies forming together, states. The way the system was designed by the Founding Fathers was to ensure all US states had a voice in the democratic process. The House by population, two senators for every state, and the electoral college to prevent mass voting -- ie, focusing on large cities without consideration for farmers, rural dwellers etc. It's a very good system for our large nation.
In short, your point isn't really valid.



Votes are based on the interpretation of information, what the media portrays. In fact, this isn't a whole lot of difference between what gets done under a Democratic president or a Republican president, only the talk is different. Are people uneducated? Yes, many voters aren't away of the issues they vote for, only what issues sound like, what the headline sentence of the bill, measure or bond is. Do I agree with that? No. I read over everything, personally.
It goes both way, some people vote purely democrat or purely republican based on a single issue, regardless. Abortion, automatic democrat. Taxes, republican. So on and so on...



Well, you are qualifying votes. What's the point of voting if you don't vote for the person you want? Even if he doesn't stand a chance and you vote for someone you don't want, that just supports the system we have today.
Obama is charismatic, but little experience and ultra liberal. Hilary is evil. McCain isn't old fashioned, but he isn't the most likable person.



One vote does make a difference! Google "does one vote make a difference?" or something along those lines. I found many examples when I first looked it up back in 2000.




The rest just seems like baseless opinion and doesn't support any argument at all, especially an academic paper. Actually, almost the whole post, but I still wanted to make some points. Hope you learned something about the American political system.

ya it helps alot, especially cause the paper im writing is an essay of inquiry so its not really an argument but more an enlightenment of my opinion and the 2 sides of an argument. and ya alot of it is just baseless opinion cause i dont have t.v. or research politics at all. pretty much everything i do know is just from word of mouth. i basically just chose this topic cause i can tell from my teachers attitude he doesnt like politicians and he is big on current events, plus i also like argueing against things that most everybody assumes to support

[odin_dax]

It took me awhile to figure out the system, so learn from the experience of others. Still, research isn't that hard. Good luck with your paper.

The key is the media and media bias. You could write a good paper on that.

[DominoKett]

ya i think im going to have the papers thesis be like "is voting really better than not voting" or something along the lines of that. since the paper is an inquiry its like i need to have a neutral thesis then investigate both sides and give my opinion on the topic in the conclusion. for the body of the paragraph i plan on having three cases of resoning, those being: george bush's election/ lack of support afterword, the people who vote/ how they come to a decision, and then look at the current election so i can use a lot of evidence of whats going on in todays world

[odin_dax]

ya i think im going to have the papers thesis be like "is voting really better than not voting" or something along the lines of that. since the paper is an inquiry its like i need to have a neutral thesis then investigate both sides and give my opinion on the topic in the conclusion. for the body of the paragraph i plan on having three cases of resoning, those being: george bush's election/ lack of support afterword, the people who vote/ how they come to a decision, and then look at the current election so i can use a lot of evidence of whats going on in todays world

Bush's 2000 election comes down to how you interpret all the facts. If you come up with a view, you have to support it. You can argue anything as long as you do that.

BTW, he really did win...

[Th0r]

Because if you dont vote you have no control...

You do make a difference when you vote. Granted a tiny one but even so...

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

If you voted against Dubya would you not be proud?

[odin_dax]

If you voted against Dubya would you not be proud?

No.

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

Why?

[Th0r]

If you voted against Dubya would you not be proud?

Al Gore?

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

Ahhh ok lol. Hmmm lesser of two evils than.

Im aussie so i have a excuse for not knowing that.

[odin_dax]

I proudly voted for George W. Bush, twice!

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

I have a question.

Why is/was Al Gore so bad of a choice?

[odin_dax]

I have a question.

Why is/was Al Gore so bad of a choice?

Tough to remember all the negativity about him... He's a fraud, worked with the Chinese, a stiff, not very good at international relations, had bad ideas about Social Security and taxes. I'm sure a Google search can help. It was a long time ago now.

[Th0r]

Why is/was Al Gore so bad of a choice?

Watch 'Testify' by Rage Against the Machine. The video anyways. Whatever Bush said Gore said...

[Nox (ADVANCED)]

Ahhh ok will do that. Google watch out lol.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

...My father said something to me that made a lot of sense...

...He said that basically all this bullshit regarding the presidency with debates and the like is just a big fucking joke. Like how politicians go "If I were president, I would strip away 'Big Government' and legalize marijuana and take away taxes..."
- all of that is just a popularity contest, and nothing more.

He said that even if this person has achieved the presidency, he probably still won't be able to do what he had promised for the past year because the president can only veto laws, not make them. Plus, he would have to make all kinds of bedfellows in Congress just to change the system. And the newly elected President doesn't have to do shit for the promises he makes to a lot of people, because he's already in power. What are they gonna do, take back their votes if he doesn't? Ha. The only people he works to help are the Big Corps to which he is indebted to for help in his campaign..

People think that if they vote for this person or that person because of his "views" on such and such, he will actually stand by what he says all the way.

Like when Bush Senior said "Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES.."

Then a couple months down the road all sorts of new taxes come in..

People are so fucking dumb to believe this shit.

IMO, voting is pointless because you can't effect change directly anyway, and have no truthful basis in putting your misplaced conviction in someone else's devious politics..

My two cents.

[odin_dax]

My two cents.

I'll give you a refund. No, the system isn't perfect, but it's not as clearly defined as you make it out. Yes, candidates make a lot of promises, and they do their best, I'm sure. It's a lot different when you're in the chair. The President can draft laws and send them to a sponsor in Congress. Happens all the time.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

I'll give you a refund. No, the system isn't perfect, but it's not as clearly defined as you make it out. Yes, candidates make a lot of promises, and they do their best, I'm sure. It's a lot different when you're in the chair. The President can draft laws and send them to a sponsor in Congress. Happens all the time.

I'm afraid opinions aren't to be refunded.

Two Cents Idiom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_two_cents_(idiom))


Well, perhaps you're right, odin. After all, being "sure", you speak from experience, correct?

From my experience, politicians are like whitewashed graves, they are gloriously clean outside, but a mere peek inside reveals their true filth.

In the Philippines, politicians also do their "best". They steal money from public funds to be used for infrastructure and utilities by allocating substandard materials. Major government-corporate scandals are common. The stench is so high it reaches up to the very presidency. No one trusts the system, because even the President and her family are crooks. No one is punished because to be a politician, one must be corrupt in the first place. Police, traffic authorities, courts - all have a "money first" basis.

Here, votes are used as bargaining chips for money and food because most people have neither, and these impoverished masses have given up hope from receiving help from the government. In fact, the government here is the very reason why people here are becoming poorer. The exorbitant national debt and the taxes that break the poor who have no money to pay for it - all courtesy of the government.

This is the reason why the number 1 commodity the Philippines produces for export is not rice, not mangoes, but people. Everyone wants to get the fuck out, where they can actually get a real job, away from this system of perpetual corruption.

Well, I understand where you're coming from. The US is different, and there probably really are politicians with serving the public first in mind. But I know that even American politicians have their own agenda. Everyone does.

But now understand where I come from, politics is dirtier than a porta-potty in a large carnival, which is why I prefer to take political campaigns and speeches with a large grain of salt. Which is why I suggest that you might perhaps do the same.

[odin_dax]

You should join the Freemasons, Heavy. A lot of politicians in your country are in it. I hear almost 100%

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

YEAH! your vote counts!

.. im sure those people in florida thought that too.


who knows how many other times votes are discarded or forgotton about or just ignored.

and no. your vote does not count. dont try to say it does. it doesnt. yeah, if youre rich with a big house on the hill and vote in a good part of town, yes, your vote might count. but for those not as fortunate. who knows how many times they just discard the votes, or forget about them even. dont sit here and try to contradict this. you cannot say the government is 100% accurate on even harvesting the votes.

no way..

and i quickly read through odins reply. and the google one vote thing doesnt work any more. your vote doesnt count.

let me clarify, i am only speaking of the presidency.

[odin_dax]

YEAH! your vote counts!

.. im sure those people in florida thought that too.


who knows how many other times votes are discarded or forgotton about or just ignored.

and no. your vote does not count. dont try to say it does. it doesnt. yeah, if youre rich with a big house on the hill and vote in a good part of town, yes, your vote might count. but for those not as fortunate. who knows how many times they just discard the votes, or forget about them even. dont sit here and try to contradict this. you cannot say the government is 100% accurate on even harvesting the votes.

no way..

and i quickly read through odins reply. and the google one vote thing doesnt work any more. your vote doesnt count.

let me clarify, i am only speaking of the presidency.

That was probably the biggest waste of data you've ever posted on Rorta. Your vote DOES count, and, yeah, some votes probably do get tossed. Yes, I can think of many elections where Democrats cheated in Washington and Illinois, just as examples.

How does being rich give you more than one vote? Aren't there liberal and conservative rich people? Maybe the government isn't 100% accurate, but it's pretty close. If you're so unhappy with our system, try going to Zimbabwe, Iran, North Korea, or pick from what must be 100 out of the 192 countries in the world that are corrupt.

Florida? There were all kinds of things wrong with that election, on both sides. Since you were probably in diapers at the time, maybe we shouldn't even bring up this point. Let me quickly add, Florida is in two time zones. The panhandle is a conservative area an hour behind. If many people coming off work are slow to go vote and wait until the final hour, as a lot do, then wouldn't have the eager media calling the state for Gore before all the polls closed have any kind of impact?

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

That was probably the biggest waste of data you've ever posted on Rorta. Your vote DOES count, and, yeah, some votes probably do get tossed. Yes, I can think of many elections where Democrats cheated in Washington and Illinois, just as examples. biggest waste of data ive posted on rorta? right. look at what you just said. your vote does count and yeah some votes do get tossed. did the people who had their votes think it counted? ...are you arguing from the republican side? i took no political side in the argument man. i dont care. democrats cheated. making peoples votes not count right? owned.

How does being rich give you more than one vote? Aren't there liberal and conservative rich people? Maybe the government isn't 100% accurate, but it's pretty close. If you're so unhappy with our system, try going to Zimbabwe, Iran, North Korea, or pick from what must be 100 out of the 192 countries in the world that are corrupt.? how did i say being rich gave you more than one vote? i said your vote may count then cause the polls are in a good part of town or something. all still one vote. and yes. the government is not 100% accurate. thats what im saying. you can not say your vote counted. and wtf. who said anything about me being unhappy with the system? i just said a vote doesnt count. you completely read my post wrong and are trying to start an argument about a subject i dont really care for. i dont care about liberal or not republican or democrats enough to argue about. all im saying is you can not say your vote counts.

Florida? There were all kinds of things wrong with that election, on both sides. Since you were probably in diapers at the time, maybe we shouldn't even bring up this point. Let me quickly add, Florida is in two time zones. The panhandle is a conservative area an hour behind. If many people coming off work are slow to go vote and wait until the final hour, as a lot do, then wouldn't have the eager media calling the state for Gore before all the polls closed have any kind of impact?
you took that way out of proportion. peoples votes in flordia werent counted. bottomline. so you can not say a persons vote will count.

[death11284]

First of all, I would like to point out that we are not termed a republic, we are termed a "representative democracy". Because our government is defined as such there is direct power inherent in citizenry, you just have to take advantage of it. You vote for the representatives seated in your state..however at the moment people are too lazy so it destroys the system. Those of you who complain about the electoral college need to realize that.

Essentially what happens (for those of you that don't know) is a representative from each district is chosen, this representative then votes in the electoral college based on his views. So essentially every district's views is represented, and allows for a stream-lined way to choose. In my opinion this is an inferior way to do it with the invention of mass instant communication. However in the old days think about how efficient that would be...

An alternate reason would be to keep the uneducated masses from having any control. Generally the uneducated, "stupid and lazy people" for lack of better words won't vote in the elections at the district level because it's "not important". Due to the sensationalization of the presidential "election" and the lack of such in the district election the uneducated people that watch TV all day wouldn't truly have a say, but the illusion of such would be implemented. Of course this would imply that our founding fathers foresaw the mass media..which is doubtful but possible.

To summarize, control is only attainable by those who truly know how to seek it within our nation. Whether this is just or unjust is an entirely different debate.

And for those of you who believe the out-of-the-light republicans/democrats don't stand a chance and that voting for them is throwing you vote away, you're merely victims of media cynicism. The only way to overcome this is on the individual basis. Insofar as this individual transcendence is realized, our true views can be expressed.

Insofar as it isn't specified in the resolutional statement of your essay you could essentially take the stance that it's pointless to vote in the "presidential election" but to vote in the district rep election is highly important. Essentially it would be a kritik on the essay topic.

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

why dont they allow you to vote online? at any level. presidental down to a district court judge. why dont they open up a website where you just click your candidate and bam. you voted. that would allow for the garbage electoral college to be thrown away.

[death11284]

A few reasons:

A) If it's connected to the internet it can be broken into, at the very least the traffic can be intercepted.
B) Anonymity can be preserved on the internet through things like proxies and MAC spoofers, we've all tricked rapidshare, etc.
C) Stealing identities to vote could enable you to rig an election, if done on a mass level.

And probably a hundred thousand other reasons I can't think of right now.

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

A few reasons:

A) If it's connected to the internet it can be broken into, at the very least the traffic can be intercepted.
B) Anonymity can be preserved on the internet through things like proxies and MAC spoofers, we've all tricked rapidshare, etc.
C) Stealing identities to vote could enable you to rig an election, if done on a mass level.

And probably a hundred thousand other reasons I can't think of right now.

valid points.

[odin_dax]

why dont they allow you to vote online? at any level. presidental down to a district court judge. why dont they open up a website where you just click your candidate and bam. you voted. that would allow for the garbage electoral college to be thrown away.

Because the electoral college ensures even the smaller states have an impact.

[odin_dax]

biggest waste of data ive posted on rorta? right. look at what you just said. your vote does count and yeah some votes do get tossed. did the people who had their votes think it counted? ...are you arguing from the republican side? i took no political side in the argument man. i dont care. democrats cheated. making peoples votes not count right? owned.

Forgive me for not explaining. I wrote that after a long trip and little sleep.

No, I'm not arguing from any side, just knowledge on the subject. Votes do count because after Florida many states passed laws and added new measures to ensure all votes are counted properly.
The point about some votes being tossed is just a reality. Some votes have been tossed for many reasons -- cheating, can't read, double vote, whatever. Did you ever find the website with 1 vote win examples in the US?


how did i say being rich gave you more than one vote? i said your vote may count then cause the polls are in a good part of town or something. all still one vote. and yes. the government is not 100% accurate. thats what im saying. you can not say your vote counted. and wtf. who said anything about me being unhappy with the system? i just said a vote doesnt count. you completely read my post wrong and are trying to start an argument about a subject i dont really care for. i dont care about liberal or not republican or democrats enough to argue about. all im saying is you can not say your vote counts.

Why is it that there has to be an argument if someone disagrees on this board?

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm simply responding to your statements that are absolutely baseless and wrong.


you took that way out of proportion. peoples votes in flordia werent counted. bottomline. so you can not say a persons vote will count.

No I didn't... I can say what I want because I know more on this subject, bottomline. Florida can be argued a number of different ways, but it comes down to bias. Many people can't let go of their bias simply because Florida has had such an impact on current American history. Since you already have yours, there's no point discussing it.

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

Because the electoral college ensures even the smaller states have an impact.

yeah. but if we got rid of the whole idea where the states vote and just had it where individual people vote. then itd be a lot better. my opinion.

i didnt do a good job of explaining what i meant but you know what i mean.

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

Forgive me for not explaining. I wrote that after a long trip and little sleep.

No, I'm not arguing from any side, just knowledge on the subject. Votes do count because after Florida many states passed laws and added new measures to ensure all votes are counted properly.
The point about some votes being tossed is just a reality. Some votes have been tossed for many reasons -- cheating, can't read, double vote, whatever. Did you ever find the website with 1 vote win examples in the US?

with the new laws. granted votes might be able to count more. but what about all the years before with all the numerous errors. you can not say your vote counted. so if votes are still getting tossed why are you still arguing with me saying votes always count. youre taking to a level i'm not wanted to go to. getting too descriptive. im just saying you can not say your vote counts for whatever reason.

and no. i wasnt ever able to find that website. but i know for a fact that there has never been a presidency with a 1 vote win. and if you remember when i originally posted i said im speaking of the presidency only.





Why is it that there has to be an argument if someone disagrees on this board?

I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm simply responding to your statements that are absolutely baseless and wrong.

alright. no argument. but how are my statements baseless and wrong? you say Some votes have been tossed for many reasons -- cheating, can't read, double vote, whatever. and im simply saying not all votes are counted so you can not say your vote counted. those votes that they toss for cant read, double vote or whatever. do they send those people a letter saying 'hey. we had to get rid of your vote' no. and they are sitting there still assuming their votes counted. which they dont. so you can not say your vote counts.



No I didn't... I can say what I want because I know more on this subject, bottomline. Florida can be argued a number of different ways, but it comes down to bias. Many people can't let go of their bias simply because Florida has had such an impact on current American history. Since you already have yours, there's no point discussing it.
dude, again shit. im just saying not all votes count. this is getting frustrating. you keep on trying to overwhelm me with nonsense facts and babel. just admit peoples votes dont always count. and leave it at that. i dont care about years. political parties. states. elections or anything. all i know is you can not say your vote counted.

[odin_dax]

Overwhelm you with facts? I'm just trying to give you some, all which you apparently lack. If you're going to make statements, and then admit their baseless, then don't challenge me to do all the research to prove you're right or wrong because I called you out on it. You already know you're wrong.

Some sites... http://youvote.msu.edu/onevotematters.html
http://apaforprogress.org/wordpress/?p=133
http://www.thisnation.com/question/052.html

You obviously didn't look hard enough. I found all three in under a minute.


Now, can you stop bitching about taking for granted your right to vote, a right that so many have died and bled to protect? If all the morons people who thought like you got together, then you wouldn't have to worry about the status quo anymore.

[death11284]

Because the electoral college ensures even the smaller states have an impact.

Okay, this is the worst defense of the electoral college that can ever be devised. I'm not dissing you, just the concept in general.

First of all, this entire theory is completely destroyed by the fact that electoral college votes are based solely off of population.

Furthermore, in this concept, the electoral college is undermining the voice of the people. simply put: state contains a certain amount of people, that's the amount of pull it should have in the election.

Insofar as the governmental obligation of reciprocity is to the citizens it is providing to the CITIZEN NOT THE STATE. A state is simply a divisional unit such as a district. Because the power of our government comes from the consent of the governed not the government itself, political power should be solely derived from the populance, not the governing institutions, which are derived themselves from the populance..

Let me know if that didn't make sense, I'm not good at transferring my views from my head to paper.

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

Overwhelm you with facts? I'm just trying to give you some, all which you apparently lack. If you're going to make statements, and then admit their baseless, then don't challenge me to do all the research to prove you're right or wrong because I called you out on it. You already know you're wrong.

Some sites... http://youvote.msu.edu/onevotematters.html
http://apaforprogress.org/wordpress/?p=133
http://www.thisnation.com/question/052.html

You obviously didn't look hard enough. I found all three in under a minute.


Now, can you stop bitching about taking for granted your right to vote, a right that so many have died and bled to protect? If all the morons people who thought like you got together, then you wouldn't have to worry about the status quo anymore.

good job you found the sites. i didnt look anyways so the jokes on you.

now all im saying once again is.. votes have been discarded for whatever reason.. and those people in most cases thought they counted. so for whatever unknown reason when you go to a booth to vote. you can not say it counted.

[odin_dax]

good job you found the sites. i didnt look anyways so the jokes on you.

now all im saying once again is.. votes have been discarded for whatever reason.. and those people in most cases thought they counted. so for whatever unknown reason when you go to a booth to vote. you can not say it counted.

Now you're just repeating your stupidity and ignoring fact. Congrats on being a troll.

[odin_dax]

Okay, this is the worst defense of the electoral college that can ever be devised. I'm not dissing you, just the concept in general.

First of all, this entire theory is completely destroyed by the fact that electoral college votes are based solely off of population.

Furthermore, in this concept, the electoral college is undermining the voice of the people. simply put: state contains a certain amount of people, that's the amount of pull it should have in the election.

Insofar as the governmental obligation of reciprocity is to the citizens it is providing to the CITIZEN NOT THE STATE. A state is simply a divisional unit such as a district. Because the power of our government comes from the consent of the governed not the government itself, political power should be solely derived from the populance, not the governing institutions, which are derived themselves from the populance..

Let me know if that didn't make sense, I'm not good at transferring my views from my head to paper.

It made sense...

That isn't my defense, that's the Founding Fathers reasoning. I think it works great. If you want a more in depth answer, try: http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa102200a.htm

[death11284]

Well then..that reason doesn't make sense, insofar as that's the reason the senate was established that seems illogical. Oh well, the common people will believe anything based on surface value.

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

Now you're just repeating your stupidity and ignoring fact. Congrats on being a troll.

no. you just dont seem to get the fact i dont want to argue with you about facts and whatnot. youre trying to EXPLAIN the reason why votes arent counted for whatever reason and im just saying they dont always get counted. open your eyes.

[odin_dax]

no. you just dont seem to get the fact i dont want to argue with you about facts and whatnot. youre trying to EXPLAIN the reason why votes arent counted for whatever reason and im just saying they dont always get counted. open your eyes.

How quickly you forget the other topics we've talked about. Again, you restate a baseless opinion.

[odin_dax]

Well then..that reason doesn't make sense, insofar as that's the reason the senate was established that seems illogical. Oh well, the common people will believe anything based on surface value.

In general, I'll agree that the common people will believe anything. However, with regards to this topic, I'd like to ask how you think the Senate is illogical? Also, are you saying that the electoral college is not illogical anymore?

[death11284]

In general, I'll agree that the common people will believe anything. However, with regards to this topic, I'd like to ask how you think the Senate is illogical? Also, are you saying that the electoral college is not illogical anymore?

The senate is essentially illogical in that it derives power from the state of being a governmental institution as opposed to the consent of the governed. What that basically means is that because a state is a state it gets a representative, it treats all states equally. Treating all states equally is doing a disservice to the people within them, if two states do not have equal populations they shouldn't get equal say. Essentially what this is doing is silencing the voices of the majority present within the larger states.

Because most laws apply nation-wide it's a nationwide evaluation, therefore it should be evaluated by the governed majority nationwide. In my opinion at the least the senate should be absolutely abolished.

The electoral college, I believe is illogical in the face of democratic ideals. However in my opinion, again, I believe the way it is set up manages to cut some stupid people out. Read my previous post for that explanation, I'm WAY too tired.

[odin_dax]

The senate is essentially illogical in that it derives power from the state of being a governmental institution as opposed to the consent of the governed. What that basically means is that because a state is a state it gets a representative, it treats all states equally. Treating all states equally is doing a disservice to the people within them, if two states do not have equal populations they shouldn't get equal say. Essentially what this is doing is silencing the voices of the majority present within the larger states.

Because most laws apply nation-wide it's a nationwide evaluation, therefore it should be evaluated by the governed majority nationwide. In my opinion at the least the senate should be absolutely abolished.

The electoral college, I believe is illogical in the face of democratic ideals. However in my opinion, again, I believe the way it is set up manages to cut some stupid people out. Read my previous post for that explanation, I'm WAY too tired.

I have to disagree. The Senate ensures that all States in Federal government have equal representation. You should read Madison's thoughts on this setup. He first designed a populace Senate. If the Senate were designed like the House, all it would take is for a few large states to sway the vote. Again, this prevents mass voting.
An electoral college does not undermine the people. Firstly, the Constitution specifically states that we have a representative government. We vote by district (ie state). We all have a vote, and our votes are tallied by district, then the winners from each district votes. District votes are based on population. Example, California has 55 electoral votes, 2 for the senate and 53 based on population. Thus, all citizens of California are represented in the electoral college by popular vote within California!

The system works, and it works great. America is much bigger than other countries and other democracies where such an involved system may not be appropriate.

[death11284]

Ah, ok you've misunderstood me. I've read Madison's thoughts on the subject, as well as done oratory events on his speeches, I'm rather familiar with his "philosophy". I was merely pointing out that insofar as the "big states" have more population they SHOULD have more sway, due to the state representing more people. Simply put, Madison's ideas for the senate are flawed in my mind, insofar as they giving a 5 million people the same value as 2 million. Just because a state is a state it gets equal say..essentially this violates one of the pillars of reciprocity within our government "power from the consent of the governed majority." It is giving power derived from being a governmental institution as opposed to the people within that governmental institution.

I was essentially calling Madison's reasoning hypocritical, insofar as he was in agreement of the governing principle "power from the consent of the governed majority".

Yes, we are a representative democracy, I stated such earlier. Insofar as this is true the representatives should be given according to influence FROM THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED MAJORITY as is one of the initial pillars of reciprocity within our society.

I also stated earlier that the electoral college was based upon population, no need to restate that. I also put an analysis in on it, here lemme quote it.

"First of all, I would like to point out that we are not termed a republic, we are termed a "representative democracy". Because our government is defined as such there is direct power inherent in citizenry, you just have to take advantage of it. You vote for the representatives seated in your state..however at the moment people are too lazy so it destroys the system. Those of you who complain about the electoral college need to realize that.

Essentially what happens (for those of you that don't know) is a representative from each district is chosen, this representative then votes in the electoral college based on his views. So essentially every district's views is represented, and allows for a stream-lined way to choose. In my opinion this is an inferior way to do it with the invention of mass instant communication. However in the old days think about how efficient that would be...

An alternate reason would be to keep the uneducated masses from having any control. Generally the uneducated, "stupid and lazy people" for lack of better words won't vote in the elections at the district level because it's "not important". Due to the sensationalization of the presidential "election" and the lack of such in the district election the uneducated people that watch TV all day wouldn't truly have a say, but the illusion of such would be implemented. Of course this would imply that our founding fathers foresaw the mass media..which is doubtful but possible."

I never said that the electoral college was unjust because it didn't take into account population..yeah..sorry if I came off as mean.

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

How quickly you forget the other topics we've talked about. Again, you restate a baseless opinion.

lol. other topics we talked about? dude you were talking to yourself about it. anyone that goes and re reads all the posts made by odin and i will see. lol. dumb. and how is it an opinion when it has been proved that a persons vote did not count? doesnt that make it a truth?

[death11284]

And how is it an opinion when it has been proved that a persons vote did not count? doesnt that make it a truth?

This is what is known as empirics, facts found through observation or analysis. Just trying to be helpful.

[odin_dax]

lol. other topics we talked about? dude you were talking to yourself about it. anyone that goes and re reads all the posts made by odin and i will see. lol. dumb. and how is it an opinion when it has been proved that a persons vote did not count? doesnt that make it a truth?

Yet, you keep responding with the same garbage. You're a broken record, dude. You made statements about rich people as well, as one example of another subject. You dropped that one rather quickly. In fact, you asked me to prove it.

If you're going to keep pretending not to care, why don't you just drop the subject? Stop responding, or is it that you need the last post? Fine...

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

Yet, you keep responding with the same garbage. You're a broken record, dude. You made statements about rich people as well, as one example of another subject. You dropped that one rather quickly. In fact, you asked me to prove it.

If you're going to keep pretending not to care, why don't you just drop the subject? Stop responding, or is it that you need the last post? Fine...

youre dumb. you keep getting off topic thats why i must keep restating. even by the smallest thing. like look. i made a small reference to rich people in a previous post and youre still dwelling on it. you suck.

no one can even talk to you. youre wayyy too pedantic.

[odin_dax]

youre dumb. you keep getting off topic thats why i must keep restating. even by the smallest thing. like look. i made a small reference to rich people in a previous post and youre still dwelling on it. you suck.

no one can even talk to you. youre wayyy too pedantic.

Please, you kept this going, not I. I've responded my times over to your baseless points and opinion, and then when you throw in the towel, you ramble on in several posts over about how I'm not on topic. It's obvious that you were talking to me, you just didn't have the position or stamina to continue. It would have been easier for you just to drop the subject after you admitted to having a baseless opinion. Now you just look like a dumbass trying to cover up his ignorance, but your ignorance is widely apparent in most of your posts, as well as your immaturity.

My only problem here is that I've tried to communicate with a troll. Keep being an immature kid.

[death11284]

Guys why all the personal attacks..there really isn't a need...

If you want to call each other stupid and immature, please do it over PMs..

I may not be a mod or anything, but it's just general forum etiquette. It makes it look like less of a cesspool for immaturity.

[DominoKett]

well anyways i got a c- on the paper

[odin_dax]

well anyways i got a c- on the paper

That's too bad.

[SHooTKiLLWiN]

well anyways i got a c- on the paper

thats amazing for me... goodjob.

[DominoKett]

heres my paper/argument about how i feel about voting and ya i did copy some stuff that was posted in the beginning of this thread.

Why Vote
It?s that time again. Time to elect a new president. You can tell because people are showing off their shiny new presidential bumper stickers and P. Diddy is claiming to kill people that decide not to vote. Voting has long been acclaimed as one of the greatest privileges of Americans. A right that people have fought and died for.
Ever since I was little I have been told to vote when I become of legal age. A clear fact is made to the citizens of the United States of America that if you do not vote, you are missing out on a great significant national and personal privilege. But I wonder exactly how great this privilege is? What difference can my one vote truly make? Is there a good defense for those who don?t vote?
Currently I am 19 years old. We are on the eve of the first election I will be eligible to vote for. I am registered but still undecided. The idea of voting for a president has me sitting on the fence. Just because I have the right to do something I don?t feel I must do it, so with the election coming just around the corner the question is ?to vote or not to vote??
In the United States of America we have always been given the right to vote who are country?s leaders are. This includes who?s going to be our mayors, governors, senators, and our president. Since ratification of the constitution, we have been living in a federative republic. This is very similar to a democracy, in ways that citizens vote for house members, laws, and they have a say in who becomes president.
America was founded by British colonies which, in turn, formed the 50 states we live in today. The founding fathers put in place a system so that each state would have a voice in our government. This is called the Bicameral System. This is composed of two senators from each state and there is an electoral collage to prevent mass voting. By mass voting I mean large cities taking authority over the majority of votes giving little recognition to farmers, rural dwellers, etc.
Can one person actually change the outcome of a massive vote? In the past one vote has been able to sway a vote in quite a few circumstances. In 1714 one vote put King George I in charge of England, restoring monarchy. In 1846 one vote is what gave U.S. president Polk authority to declare war on Mexico. In 1859 the state of Oregon was admitted to the union by one marginal vote. While this is evidence of one vote making a difference, is it completely accurate in relating to you? In America we don?t live in a complete democracy. All the examples listed above are votes made by representatives who were elected by the public, but the direct voting on the issues were not done by the general public.
In the year 2000 George W. Bush began his presidency by losing the popular vote. In our government the candidate with the most votes by the people is not guaranteed anything. This means that a vote has even less power than what the general public believes. In some miracle that your vote is the one that tips the scale to giving your choice of president more votes that the opposition it is still a 50/50 chance of who get elected to be president, because it is the House of Representatives is who decides.
In the year 2004 George W. Bush was reelected president of the United States. Shortly after his popularity began to decrease. Over the past four years everyone from politicians, to radio hosts, to the average Joe walking down the street has criticized him on the decisions he has made for our nations. While more and more people hop on the ?hate bush bandwagon? I still acknowledge the fact that he is the man the majority of the U.S. wanted to lead them not even 4 years ago. So what does this mean? It means that votes are made uneducated. If you voted for Bush both times and are more happier with him know than ever I applaud you, but if you were part of the majority that voted for him ,even one of the two times he ran, and now do not support him, you are a classic example of an uneducated voter. Is anyone truly enlightened enough to make an educated vote on our countries next leader? Looking at the Bush example, the answer is obviously, No. We are all influenced by the media and our peers on how we view controversial issues as well as the presidential candidates.
In the last couple of months it?s been clear there are three choices left for president: Hilary Clinton, Barrack Obama, and John McCain. The media is able to portray these three characters in any way they want and the scary thing is the general public just takes it in. I will use Youtube as an example of a network that is broadcasting a certain opinion. Youtube should be more innocent than other sources of information consider that videos are posted from people all over the U.S. but I can?t help but notice candidates being developed into media characters. On the top viewed videos sections there are always videos portraying Hilary Clinton as being evil, Barrack Obama as being a breathe of fresh air, and John McCain is no where to be seen ,suggesting he?s just someone kinda tossed in the mix for the republicans sake. Since the media has such a drastic effect on how we view these candidates, what will get a candidate a presidency is being a media darling. Basically, it is a competition judging how well you speak, look, and deal with tough questions.
Looking at voting from a mature standpoint it is pointless. Sure you can go down to the voting booth and feel like your doing your civic duty to your county, but what is really being accomplished. Take a look back at the entire history. When has one vote ever made a difference? Never. The reason for this is because with the bicameral system we have in place it is impossible for a member of the general public to make a difference.
Think of it at an equation. There is Candidate A and Candidate B. You want Candidate B to win. Candidate A has X votes and Candidate B has X votes. You put in your vote giving Candidate B, X+1 votes and the majority support of the U.S. The vote does nothing though because the House of Representatives decides who is president and they can choose Candidate A just as easily as Candidate B.
So in the end there are two choices. You can go vote, go ahead believing you know better than others who are next leader should be and raise the popular vote by one thousandth of a percentage even though the popular vote doesn?t matter. Or you can take a stand and not vote, spare yourself the false security that you make a difference by not participating in a system that deceives us. I say rock the vote by not voting! If enough people stop voting eventually our system will have to be revised to give more power to the people.

[odin_dax]

heres my paper/argument about how i feel about voting and ya i did copy some stuff that was posted in the beginning of this thread.

Why Vote
It?s that time again. Time to elect a new president. You can tell because people are showing off their shiny new presidential bumper stickers and P. Diddy is claiming to kill people that decide not to vote. Voting has long been acclaimed as one of the greatest privileges of Americans. A right that people have fought and died for.
Ever since I was little I have been told to vote when I become of legal age. A clear fact is made to the citizens of the United States of America that if you do not vote, you are missing out on a great significant national and personal privilege. But I wonder exactly how great this privilege is? What difference can my one vote truly make? Is there a good defense for those who don?t vote?
Currently I am 19 years old. We are on the eve of the first election I will be eligible to vote for. I am registered but still undecided. The idea of voting for a president has me sitting on the fence. Just because I have the right to do something I don?t feel I must do it, so with the election coming just around the corner the question is ?to vote or not to vote??
In the United States of America we have always been given the right to vote who are country?s leaders are. This includes who?s going to be our mayors, governors, senators, and our president. Since ratification of the constitution, we have been living in a federative republic. This is very similar to a democracy, in ways that citizens vote for house members, laws, and they have a say in who becomes president.
America was founded by British colonies which, in turn, formed the 50 states we live in today. The founding fathers put in place a system so that each state would have a voice in our government. This is called the Bicameral System. This is composed of two senators from each state and there is an electoral collage to prevent mass voting. By mass voting I mean large cities taking authority over the majority of votes giving little recognition to farmers, rural dwellers, etc.
Can one person actually change the outcome of a massive vote? In the past one vote has been able to sway a vote in quite a few circumstances. In 1714 one vote put King George I in charge of England, restoring monarchy. In 1846 one vote is what gave U.S. president Polk authority to declare war on Mexico. In 1859 the state of Oregon was admitted to the union by one marginal vote. While this is evidence of one vote making a difference, is it completely accurate in relating to you? In America we don?t live in a complete democracy. All the examples listed above are votes made by representatives who were elected by the public, but the direct voting on the issues were not done by the general public.
In the year 2000 George W. Bush began his presidency by losing the popular vote. In our government the candidate with the most votes by the people is not guaranteed anything. This means that a vote has even less power than what the general public believes. In some miracle that your vote is the one that tips the scale to giving your choice of president more votes that the opposition it is still a 50/50 chance of who get elected to be president, because it is the House of Representatives is who decides.
In the year 2004 George W. Bush was reelected president of the United States. Shortly after his popularity began to decrease. Over the past four years everyone from politicians, to radio hosts, to the average Joe walking down the street has criticized him on the decisions he has made for our nations. While more and more people hop on the ?hate bush bandwagon? I still acknowledge the fact that he is the man the majority of the U.S. wanted to lead them not even 4 years ago. So what does this mean? It means that votes are made uneducated. If you voted for Bush both times and are more happier with him know than ever I applaud you, but if you were part of the majority that voted for him ,even one of the two times he ran, and now do not support him, you are a classic example of an uneducated voter. Is anyone truly enlightened enough to make an educated vote on our countries next leader? Looking at the Bush example, the answer is obviously, No. We are all influenced by the media and our peers on how we view controversial issues as well as the presidential candidates.
In the last couple of months it?s been clear there are three choices left for president: Hilary Clinton, Barrack Obama, and John McCain. The media is able to portray these three characters in any way they want and the scary thing is the general public just takes it in. I will use Youtube as an example of a network that is broadcasting a certain opinion. Youtube should be more innocent than other sources of information consider that videos are posted from people all over the U.S. but I can?t help but notice candidates being developed into media characters. On the top viewed videos sections there are always videos portraying Hilary Clinton as being evil, Barrack Obama as being a breathe of fresh air, and John McCain is no where to be seen ,suggesting he?s just someone kinda tossed in the mix for the republicans sake. Since the media has such a drastic effect on how we view these candidates, what will get a candidate a presidency is being a media darling. Basically, it is a competition judging how well you speak, look, and deal with tough questions.
Looking at voting from a mature standpoint it is pointless. Sure you can go down to the voting booth and feel like your doing your civic duty to your county, but what is really being accomplished. Take a look back at the entire history. When has one vote ever made a difference? Never. The reason for this is because with the bicameral system we have in place it is impossible for a member of the general public to make a difference.
Think of it at an equation. There is Candidate A and Candidate B. You want Candidate B to win. Candidate A has X votes and Candidate B has X votes. You put in your vote giving Candidate B, X+1 votes and the majority support of the U.S. The vote does nothing though because the House of Representatives decides who is president and they can choose Candidate A just as easily as Candidate B.
So in the end there are two choices. You can go vote, go ahead believing you know better than others who are next leader should be and raise the popular vote by one thousandth of a percentage even though the popular vote doesn?t matter. Or you can take a stand and not vote, spare yourself the false security that you make a difference by not participating in a system that deceives us. I say rock the vote by not voting! If enough people stop voting eventually our system will have to be revised to give more power to the people.

I can see why you got a C-. Is this for college English? Poli Sci?

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

I can see why you got a C-. Is this for college English? Poli Sci?
Well, don't downplay him. It wasn't that bad.

Let's see you do better.

[odin_dax]

Well, don't downplay him. It wasn't that bad.

Let's see you do better.

I've already earned A's in all my English and Poli Sci classes, but no thanks, Heavy.

I'm not trying to downplay anyone, but the organization was bad, grammar was bad, opinion wasn't kept to the conclusion paragraph, I didn't see a thesis at all, he'd start topics but not really discuss them, thus paragraphs were too short as well. He only considered one aspect of voting, the presidential election, but maybe that was only the focus his assignment, not sure. Depending on the paper, or class, some references should have been deleted -- P Diddy (no note to who he is - not everybody knows him), age, first eligible time to vote. Maybe I could go on...

I don't know if that's how you write or if you just put stuff together last minute. I hope my comments help you to improve or remember how to write an academic paper. Good luck with the rest of the class.

[Th0r]

It wasn't that bad. Had I been marking it I would have upped the Grade to a B-...

That's personal opinion mind you!

[odin_dax]

It wasn't that bad. Had I been marking it I would have upped the Grade to a B-...

That's personal opinion mind you!

Ha, you're entitled, of course. All I said is why he got a C-.

[DominoKett]

ya i dont think its that great of a paper but definatly better than a c-. and the class is writing 122, and i have an A in it so this is going to be shitty for my overall grade. i think its just kinda a shitty way they make us write papers, we are given 3 days to come up with an outline and then write a 3-5 page essay from that on a topic that we have about 1 day to decide on,

[odin_dax]

ya i dont think its that great of a paper but definatly better than a c-. and the class is writing 122, and i have an A in it so this is going to be shitty for my overall grade. i think its just kinda a shitty way they make us write papers, we are given 3 days to come up with an outline and then write a 3-5 page essay from that on a topic that we have about 1 day to decide on,

Writing classes tend to be fast paced. Usually, teachers approve outlines, so that should help any paper come to fruition. 3-5 pages isn't bad at all, trust me on that. Wait until upper-division and your thesis. A friend of mine has to write sixty pages! I have an oral exam in which I advise a client in EU law for ten minutes. And I have a seven-page paper for my international class, which is easy bullshit but still seven pages. (Why did I go back to school?) :crazy:

[ZionBlack]

One good reason not to vote is because in a system where theres 4 maybe 5 candidates to choose from. every single one of them will serve "the man" in the same way.

[DominoKett]

ya and also you have a greater chance of dying in a car crash on your way to the voting booth than you do making a difference in the election. also your just giving yourself a false sense of security that you make a difference

[odin_dax]

ya and also you have a greater chance of dying in a car crash on your way to the voting booth than you do making a difference in the election. also your just giving yourself a false sense of security that you make a difference

We've reached the end of a circular argument. I'm sorry you don't feel your vote makes a difference but it does. Statewide propositions? State offices? County offices? Mayor? The smaller the scale, the more impact. The smaller the county, the more likely your vote counts. Maybe one day you'll appreciate this wonderful gift that we have that so many have died to protect. Until then, if you don't vote, don't talk.

[Esophagus]

Ah, the free rider problem (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-rider/#5).

I vote because the same argument could be made for "why not vote?".

The polling station is ten minutes from my house and the worst that can happen is things won't go my way. It also slightly (very slightly) increases the chance of things going my way. The fact that there is only ever a less than 50% voter turnout only makes it seem all the more important.