Purchase of Fire arms

[ZionBlack]

How can SWIM get introduced to arms dealers, what activities would help
SWIM if SWIM becomes a drug dealer will i eventually get introduced.. what other ways.

[crazy white guy]

I just met a guy that would sell me a gun two months ago. I just made friends with him and he said he would sell me his gun. I couldn't afford it at the time and i now have no use for a gun. Theres alos this guy i met. Its sheer luck that i met him. He is one of the major players in a local gang. If theres a gun that needs to be sold in my area, he knows about it.

stealing guns in the burbs from houses is a pla, but it will get you in more shit than your probably worth.

buying all the parts online is another way. but that will cost you a lot more than the gun is worth in the end unless you get shit parts.

so making friends in the right places is your best bet.

[Pimpin4Life30]

I would go with robbing some houses not to mention you can get some extra cash.Check for gun cabinnents,high places,in closets,and under beds.Target middle class homes.

[Th0r]

Screw 'Arms Dealers'. Don't use that term. An Arms Dealer is someone who sells weapons in bulk or just very heavy weaponry.

Are you in the USA?

[Darkhunter]

How can SWIM get introduced to arms dealers, what activities would help
SWIM if SWIM becomes a drug dealer will i eventually get introduced.. what other ways.

Seriousky screw arms dealers. If your in the US just grab one of those free selling books (Where you place an add for free with promise of giving 1% of sales to the publication) and open to the firearms section. There is guaranteed over 100 different firearms ranging from just under $1200 to just over $300.

[Th0r]

If you are in the United States please do recall the Columbine Murders of 1999. The killers used someone else to purchase weapons for them at a gun show.

With the promise of large sums of money I think it is acheivable.

[RoundElephant]

Seriousky screw arms dealers. If your in the US just grab one of those free selling books (Where you place an add for free with promise of giving 1% of sales to the publication) and open to the firearms section. There is guaranteed over 100 different firearms ranging from just under $1200 to just over $300.

I don't think he wnts to purchase it legally, if he did he would just go to a gun shop.

[Micro]

This is a guide on buying firearms from the black market. I originally copied it from some forum and compiled it into a text file. It mainly focuses on the US but it has a chapter about Europe. I don't know how valid or uptodate the information is but from what I understand it seems rather good.

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Part 1

Security and Legal Considerations



The Law and the Survivor

If you have read much into this site, you have probably discovered that not everything discussed is always going to be legal for all people in all circumstances. In most of the English speaking world, we have seen a progression toward more restriction on weapons - especially firearms. In conjunction with restrictions on weapons, there has been a shift by the courts to narrower interpretations of the basic right of self defense. The use of deadly force in self defense is almost never accepted by courts in the UK and Canada is a short step behind. In the western United States, laws plainly spell out conditions and case law where it is perfectly legal to kill someone with a gun under certain circumstances, but zealous prosecutors with a social agenda will attack a self defender anyway.

In world courts, laws and reality of self defense change from day to day. Armed groups or vigilantes can be heroes under one regime and fugitives under another. Interestingly, the UN courts seem to only recognize the rights of governments to dispense justice and provide for protection of their citizens although there has been a growing tolerance for openly militaristic corporate security forces. Several human rights organizations have noted that wealth is the major determiner in the tolerance of paramilitary security forces.

In the emerging political climate of borderless wars and far reaching security concerns, legality and practical reality may simply be incompatible.

The truth is, even if you are innocent and peaceful, you have plenty to fear from the law.

In nature, the right to self defense is self evident. It is outlined to some extent in most major religious and philosophical works and mentioned in the Mosaic laws. Unfortunately, many governments and non-governmental organizations, in their own interests, will consider the armed survivalist an unacceptable risk. They are unwilling to share power with the armed individual who bears arms at their own discretion.

To make matters worse, even if you win in court, there are many ways a vengeful prosecutor or law enforcement agency can damage you. One of the most common is to retain records of your indictment that will show up on background checks for business and professional licenses and certain security checks for employment. In extreme cases, new charges can be filed against you as laws and the political climate change.

Another fairly common tactic of vindictive government types is to push for heavy handed enforcement actions against a business entity with the aim of punishing the operators, owners and investors in the business. Motivations for this can be almost anything from a self appointed moral crusade to manipulation by competing businesses. Anti-trust suits against Microsoft are an example of how success and wealth are no guarantee against this type of hostile action by government. The danger for arms dealers is even more pronounced. Even those which are scrupulous in their adherence to law are targeted by government authorities. More common harassment comes in the form of tax and permit audits, but in some cases this can snowball into a full fledged paramilitary raid / attack. One Canadian surplus and militaria dealer was the object of one such raid in 1995.

A cut from a UK militaria magazine demonstrates the official British position on the private ownership of even antique guns. The caption on the picture to the left sums it up with an admonishment to the "assumed" military reader: "Don't be fooled by age, even an old bolt action rifle is lethal in the hands of a competent shot." The particular article dealt with the exploits of an intelligence unit experienced with the collection of intelligence data obtained by examining confiscated weapons. At the time the article was written, the unit was operating in Kosovo under KFOR. Such intelligence data assists investigations into where weapons have transitioned from the "legitimate" government controlled markets to "black" markets. In reality, many of the "illegitimate black markets" are controlled by clandestine operations of various governments. It is likely that one such investigation of weapons discovered in the Balkans led to the raid at Marstar and a related raid on a Colorado gun dealer who was accused of illegally importing M1 Garands from Canada. This is an example of the fuzzy line between gun collectors, international arms merchants, guerilla groups and rogue states.

I stress that the ideal of this site is one of defense and survival, not revolution or the projection of power. The aim of the survivor is peaceful tolerance from a position of strength. The true warrior mindset is a different thing and involves different priorities. Like in the first chapter, this site is put together from the standpoint of peaceful preparedness in a relatively safe environment. A survivor will probably not spend much time in a crisis scenario, but rather in simple everyday life of working, relaxing and raising a family. Many people will not understand or sympathize with you maintaining an arsenal. On the other hand, coordinated government enforcement is usually only justified when other factors come into play, like an international angle involving human rights abuses and large numbers of more modern weapons.

It is important for the survivor to have a keen sense of perspective if or when obtaining and maintaining a survival arsenal. No significant international arms smuggler or dealer has been involved directly or indirectly in any of the notorious mass workplace or schoolyard shootings, and no small time survivalist or gun collector has been the leader of a guerilla army indicted by the UN for war crimes. Unfortunately, many people are unwilling to see a significant difference and as rumors spread and grow, you may find yourself facing a legend in the mirror of public opinion that is very distorted from reality.

Employers may feel threatened by workplace rebellion or lawsuits stemming from workplace violence whether it is justified or not. Landlords, building managers and even homeowners associations can feel threatened by armed folks in their midst. Again, the underlying problem is their perception of the threat to their authority.

In many cases, employees who are known to bring personal weapons to work can be terminated as a risk to coworkers. In union related labor disputes, the possession of any kinds of weapons at the workplace can be construed as a threat to management. The excuse may be that they do not want liability for allowing arms in the premises. In these cases, the notion should be one of "what they don't know can't hurt anybody" unless a specific situation warrants it. Once people get to know and trust you, they will probably tolerate your weapons in the workplace.

A word of warning if you are the business owner or manager. You must be careful about how you conduct yourself with weapons on the premises even if you have all of the authority to possess of carry them there. Things are different from the old days when a business owner could rule his roost with an iron fist. "Chewing out" an employee or subordinate while issuing some implied threat by reaching toward your weapon, fidgeting with a holster or even talking about violence toward a subordinate while armed can cause major problems for you in civil court. There is considerable case law concerning threatening, intimidating or harassing work environments. This intimidation does not need to be of a sexual nature to get you in trouble.

So this gets us to a pivotal question. Do you have a secret arsenal, or will you be more or less public about what you have? Will you take pains to make sure there is no paper trail leading to your stash? Or will you do everything above the board and according to the law in order to assure yourself of every legal protection?

The ideals of secrecy (privacy) and legality would, in a perfect republic, be perfectly compatible. In the emerging order, however, they are not. Gun control in North America produces lawful disarmament and illegal armament for most ordinary citizens. The progression of gun control from regulation (a legitimate government function) to prohibition presents the survivor with this major dilemma.

There is no doubt that it is almost always better to have the law on your side than not, but, the legal system is not a reliable or effective ally. It is becoming more common for those who seek aid and protection from the law to be trapped by it.

Under scenario one, two and three situations many of your activities as a survivor may be illegal. Even if your activities are condoned by the authorities at present, that may change in the future. This is especially true with vigilante groups and militias. Their status can change with the winds of politics, and acts of heroism may later be treated as criminal acts decades later. The same government that supported the action could easily turn hostile in the future.

One of the strongest examples of this is phenomenon of "right wing" (meaning not Marxist) para-military organizations formed in Columbia to aid the government against Marxist guerillas and drug traffickers in the early 1990's. They quickly became the most feared and loathed opponents of guerillas and drug cartels, thus provoking legal attacks by Marxist sympathizers in the Columbian government and international community. These resulted in Columbian Supreme Court orders for partial disarmament and increased monitoring (spying) by internationals sympathetic to their enemies. Other examples can be found in states like Alabama and Georgia where the actions of Klansmen were hailed at the time as heroic defiance against racial impurity and in defense of "honorable" southern values. Decades later, many were sent to prison by the very communities they represented.

On the other side of the law are hoodlums, thieves and robbers you are arming to defend yourself against. In most cases, the deterrent value of your arsenal is derived from them knowing that you have weapons that you can use against them. Being rational people, they decide to trouble someone else. Being unwilling to respect your peace, they challenge you and your freedom to conduct your life in peace. The "we won't mess with you of you don't mess with us" variation of a peace agreement is a reasonable outcome of this. Otherwise, more violent action may be necessary to establish peace.

Winning the gunfight is only the first part of a violent confrontation in lower threat level scenarios, the next big challenge is in dealing with the law. You may or may not need to conceal your victory from the law. There have been volumes written on the subject, a lot of it available on the internet. Consider that even though many individual police officers may be entirely sympathetic to your position, their superiors may dictate action against you anyway.
Law enforcement and the survivor <section expanded - Click here for detail>


Ramifications of illegal acquisition: <section expanded - Click here for detail>


Ramifications of Registered - up front legal buying: <section expanded Click Here for detail>

Retaining weapons at the ready vs secure storage <New section Click Here for detail>


Simple wise guy advice <see below>

Self Defense and the law<New section Click Here for detail>


So here is my basic advice, behave yourself, don't give people an excuse to hate you. Don't go about drunk or stoned in public. Associate with decent people. Be active with charity and a credit to your community. Pay your taxes or at least don't cheat quite as much as everybody else. Vote in elections and go to religious services at least once in a while. It also helps to serve in some community organization that has more friends than enemies like a volunteer fire department, National Guard or reserves, or school volunteer program.

Involvement in civil politics is also a good thing. I am not suggesting that you become a serious lobbyist. Just join a political party and attend enough functions to be seen around election time. This will not make you visible enough to make you a target but will offer some protection in the future. Even if your candidate is the loser, you can charge political oppression and retaliation if someone sends hostile investigators after you. If your candidate is the winner, then you know who to call if you need a favor. Word gets out whether an elected official takes care of those who got him there, but don't expect to totally have him or her in your pocket. After all, your were not the one who got elected.

Keep your weapons out of public view unless you have a specific purpose for showing them. Use cases that will not immediately identify your weapons to a stranger. Make some attempt at keeping your arsenal legal as long as it is practical and make sense to do so. If you end up getting several guns, don't have them all registered or all unregistered if you can help it.
Security


Basic security of weapons should involve two elements first is concealment, second is physical security. Thieves cannot take what they cannot find. They cannot take what they do not know about. If you have to chose between well hidden guns and well locked up guns, go with well hidden guns unless you have people around who will be constantly looking for them. An example of this is children - especially those between ten and fifteen. They will eventually find anything that can be found.

Well locked but not well hidden weapons remain as a fixed target for thieves and enemies. This can be a problem in itself because any safe can be opened with enough time and tools - or with a knife to a hostage's throat.

Always opt to keep your weapons out of sight in public places in low threat situations, even in high threat situations, it can be a good idea to keep a low profile with the weapons. Granted in some situations a show of force is necessary. Military organizations have varying rules for treatment of armed civilians in operational areas. I suggest that you always maintain a non-hostile demeanor and keep the weapons out of sight unless needed. I plan on writing specific articles on this at another time.

I have found that simple paper bags work great for handguns in urban areas. Lets say that you think someone might be breaking in to your car on a public street in front of the apartment. It is either a thief under there or a kid retrieving a baseball. You want to carry your pistol and have it ready but you also do not want to alarm any neighbors and wrongfully terrorize their kids. Simply hold the gun in the shooting hand, put a small paper bag over the whole thing like a big mitten. (I personally like the thinner brown paper bags from convenience stores and liquor stores.) hold the gun hand close to your body as you go investigate. You can either tear the bag away in a second or simply fire through it if you have to. If nothing happens, all they remember is your hand in a paper bag and can only speculate on what kind of weapon you had if you had a weapon at all.
Physical security


Locks and safes are the best deterrent to the honest person and the casual thief, but they are no deterrent to confiscation by government or the determined robber. More care should be taken in the security of handguns than long guns since they are easier for a thief to remove from the area without detection. Kids in the house (even the innocent 13 year old daughter) have ample time to search if they live there or are visiting. I advise some level of lockable security if you anticipate kids being around.

Again, to touch on the subject of hiding - I read several books on security and some on spy craft and have concluded that the best approach is a modification of that used by Israeli Mossad operatives. These people commonly operate in countries that are at "peace" but are hostile to the agents and commonly restrict gun ownership in general. Agents will move in to a place like an apartment, house or hotel room and construct something they call a "slick". A slick is a specially constructed hiding place for weapons, money and important documents. This can be a secret compartment in a piece of furniture (favored), a compartment behind a secret door, or buried in a shallow hole in a garden.

That is not to discount the utility of a good safe, lock boxes or trigger locks to supplement a good hiding spot. I personally like trigger locks since they are cheap and difficult for thieves to deal with. My other favorite is plastic laminated cable with a conventional padlock. It is just that no lock will keep out a determined thief. Most thefts are done by fairly lazy people (after all thieves tend to be too lazy to work) so that makes locks worth the money you spend on them. The problem is that anybody can hold a weapon to you or a hostage and have you open the safe.

Another kind of security item I like is the easy access safe. Several companies make small lockboxes for handguns that can be stored just out of sight and locked in a way that the owner can unlock it and get to the gun very quickly. They usually have some fast access combination keypad or button sequence to unlock the box so a spring pops it open. This is a good unit to have in a vehicle or home for the defensive handgun.


Concealment and hiding


Hiding a gun starts when it is in plain sight. Camouflage paint not only makes the weapon harder to spot in the woods, but also makes it harder to identify in urban areas. Most assault rifles are black, most shotguns are dark blue or black. Handguns are either black in appearance of silver colored. Toy guns on the other hand are commonly painted other colors in the U.S. and Canada. By regulation, they must have an orange plug in the barrel.

Most paintball guns are camouflage and some have crazy neon pattern paint jobs. In the UK, replica guns look just like real ones. As real assault weapons become less available to collectors in the U.S. fake guns will be more common. Modifying your real guns to resemble these toys and replicas can deflect some negative attention and confuse enemy spies. This allows the bold trick of having a gun that either you deny is a weapon or confusing people as to exactly what the object is.

Remember that camo paint jobs need not be in the standard colors of a military uniform. A m?lange of grays, black and brick red can be very effective and render a firearm almost unrecognizable. The real trick is to render the gun unrecognizable to the casual eye.

A few lies to strangers about what is just a few "replicas" inherited from weird uncle Ralph might not hurt. Or maybe a real AR-15 left in a trunk with some toy guns and kids toys from goodwill for the "grandkids" or "nephews" who occasionally visit (remove it before they actually come over) might be overlooked as a toy.

I once met an old WWII vet while camping who had rebuilt a Thompson submachine gun from scrap parts. He was fairly open about showing it around and let a few of my friends fire it. Those of us who knew guns knew it was the real deal re-welded original, not a converted semi-auto. On the other hand he also kept a lot of war souvenirs around his house, including a few non-working replica submachine guns and grenades above his fireplace. He told of how his illegal Thompson had been reported to police several times but when the police came to search, he let them in with a smile, directed them to the high quality replicas hanging in the living room and then explained how their snitch mistook the replicas for the real thing. He would "admit" that he sometimes lied to people about the replicas being functional, but "knew" that a real gun expert who handled them would realize that they were not functional. The cops looked the replicas over very thoroughly, then left amused and satisfied that they had done their duty while the real illegal guns rested peacefully in a hiding place.

The more imagination put in to a hiding place, the better, but I add some kind of lock if I can. Hasty hides are difficult to lock and you may not want to modify a rented space in a building. That is why furniture with secret compartments is a good idea. I don't know why, but people I know whose homes have been searched by the police or thieves get two places searched - always. The first is the couch the second is the bed. They will pull mattresses off of frames and slash couch cushions. Coffee tables are close, same goes for desks. Of course, it all depends on the time and determination of the searchers.

Secret compartments cut out of big books are good. One decent hasty hide is to arrange books on a bookshelf so that there is space between the back of the books and the back of the bookshelf. You then have space to hide things behind the books. Since it is common for people to line up books of different sizes on a shelf so they are even on the front, the space behind them is frequently overlooked and large enough for a handgun or compact long gun.

Large stereo speakers have ample space inside for hiding things.

Living room fireplaces can have extra space behind panels, but look out for heat that can damage plastic stocks and gun parts. You can hang a shotgun hung by its sling from a coat hook behind the front door and put a coat over it for fast access to home security.

An upright vacuum cleaner bag compartment can hold a large handgun or spare rifle magazines.

You can hang a rifle by its sling from a heavy duty hanger then put a big coat or snowsuit on the hanger, then put it in the closet. Modified golf bags are good hiding spots, same with instrument cases. You can even go to an instrument store and get stickers for various brands or instruments and put them on your gun cases. Guitar cases can be easily modified for assault rifles and offer good protection. Many even have built in locks.

Dressers are usually searched but there is always space behind the drawers. The bottom of a drawer may seem like a good idea, but searchers typically just pull out the drawers and dump them anyway. Items folded in a large towel in about the middle of the drawer might be overlooked.

A closet can be made in to a cheap safe by simply installing a re-enforcement plate and heavy deadbolt lock. A step up from that would be to install a solid core entry door on a closet. A conventional safe can then be placed in the closet out of sight of most guests and family members. This double measure of security can also protect you from most liability concerning unauthorized access to the weapons. Laws in some places make the gun owner liable of a minor gets a hold of the weapon and does something illegal with it.

A trash can buried to just below the lid can be a large and usable hiding spot. Attach a rope to the lid and leave it coiled just above the ground. Paint the lid camouflage and put some dirt over it. Grow ivy or some other shallow root plant over it. A hard tug on the rope will give quick access to the contents. Planter boxes with false bottoms are good too, but be careful to make the compartment waterproof. Planter boxes are common in Europe and infrequently searched.

The kitchen offers plenty of good hides also. Large cereal boxes are good for pistols. Behind the fridge is good for a rifle or shotgun and there is usually some unused space around a stove or dishwasher for pipe and electrical access. A false compartment in the top of a kitchen table can be good. Avid using the refrigerator, it will rust guns and ruin ammo in the long run but can work short term. Liquor cabinets frequently have secret compartments anyway so they can be useful.

The bathroom usually has the obvious toilet tank and medicine cabinet. But you may have access to the space behind a shower or under a tub. Bathrooms usually have lockable doors so it makes a good place to retreat to if your home is invaded. Install a phone in the bathroom and consider some custom stash place behind a fake vent. Many security consultants recommend modifying a bathroom to act as the "hard room" of a house. You can even run the shower to steam up the bathroom with enough overpressure to keep tear gas out for a while. The bathroom of a trailer home should be modified with trap door access to the crawlspace under the home for utility access anyway.

Utility rooms can contain a second hot water heater that has been hollowed out and used as a safe, complete with fake pipe running to the wall. Fake HVAC ducts are good for bigger items. Washers and dryers rarely get searched, but you will probably need them for laundry. Housings for garage door openers are commonly bigger than they need to be, a safety cover for the chain mechanism can be made big enough to hide a rifle in the rafters of the garage.

In cars, the spare tire compartment is a decent spot, especially under a spare tire, but is also very difficult to get to. Larger cars and trucks have surplus space in the engine compartment. Expect a trunk to get searched, but some older cars have access to the space between the fender and the interior through the trunk. Attach paracord to the gun case or (if hasty) the trigger guard. Shove the gun in the space and check to make sure it does not fall out under the car. You can fish the cord out and retrieve the gun at your destination. There is almost always some space like this in the trunk of a car.

Under the seat is a bad place, it always gets searched, same goes for behind the seat of a pickup truck. Glove boxes and center consoles are so commonly searched that sometimes they get overlooked. In fact, they get overlooked more often than the space under the seat. Specially constructed compartments are best. There is usually enough space under the dashboard to put a pistol and some ammo. Make sure it stays put and does not interfere with the function of anything like pedals or heating controls. If the gun is mostly metal, make sure it won't short out any electrical circuits. The boot, or well that a convertible top stores in can be a good place too, but see how the hidden items may effect the operation of the top. This space can easily fit a rifle or shotgun.

Space under interior panels can work once or twice, but the plastic parts that hold them together will eventually break or wear out from disassembly. That is how border officers commonly catch smugglers, they check for looseness of interior panels in a car. If they have been taken off and put back on a lot, there is a reason for it.

Concealment of a handgun is a major issue when you are or might be in public view. Although it is commonly illegal, it is usually necessary. The unconcealed gun usually represents an implied threat to strangers who see it. Even if it is legal in many places, it is offensive to most people who are not armed and they are the people most likely to call the police. It may not be the law, but it is the real world. Another great danger is that someone can simply lie and say that you pulled your gun on them or threatened to pull it on them. If the gun in concealed and they cannot even accurately describe what you are carrying, nobody will believe their story that you pulled it on them. You are usually better off taking the risk of being caught carrying concealed than carrying openly and having to deal with the negative attention. You should always have some measures available for the concealment of your guns if you are to take them into any public place. Even a simple brown grocery bag can do the trick. You can have the gun in your hand, put the bag over it, and it may look odd, but it does not look like a gun - especially if you hold it close to your body. If you do not even have the bag, consider keeping it under a coat. If you have a long gun, casually take your jacket off and use it to cover the gun. Concealment holsters and bags are a no-brainer - you need them.

If you do get a concealed carry permit, get it for more than one handgun and make sure that they are two guns that look very different from each other. Like a stainless steel gun and a black gun or an automatic and a revolver. CCW information can be made available to people who can simply lie and say that you pulled the gun on them - thus being grounds for revoking the permit and maybe putting you in jail. Now try this scenario. Ms Rat has her friend at the courthouse check your CCW file and finds out you carry a stainless Beretta. She wants your job at the office and figures that if you are in jail, you get fired and she gets the promotion. She bumps your new car in the parking lot and yells at you then storms off. She calls the police and says that in the course of an argument, you pulled a big silver looking automatic and threatened to shoot her. The police show up to the office, search you and find a blue steel revolver in your handbag with the permit showing both guns. The stainless Beretta you carry on different days is sitting at home in the safe. You deny all wrongdoing and Ms Rat is proven to be a liar.

Observe some time at the shooting range or a gun shop how people carry guns. You will notice that they carry guns differently from other things. At a distance, see how they pick up a gun as compared to a power tool, binoculars or a cell phone. See how and where they carry it. Notice that a person carrying a weapon walks differently. See if you can recognize the walk. Go to a police station or courthouse and watch the cops and security people. Notice that they will have a similar walk. Even the plain clothes people will have the walk. Their hand will subconsciously go to the weapon from time to time and if trained - they will usually turn to keep the weapon away from someone they interact with.

Next, go to a shopping mall or big department store and see how people pick things up and carry them. Notice how the packages determine how something is held. Flea markets are another good place to observe since most things are not packaged. See how someone handles long slender objects that are about the same size and weight as a rifle. People will hold these things differently from the way they would hold a weapon. See what social context they are carrying them in. I am convinced that a 'street band' carrying instrument cases could just about go anywhere in a big city.

One thing I have noticed is that cell phones are commonly black and carried on the waist just like a gun, but they are almost never carried in the small of the back. They are also commonly carried bulging in a jacket pocket. This has become so common that I wonder how police deal with it. A person with a chunky black object in their hand holding it sideways to their ear and mouth would probably just be overlooked as someone with a cell phone.

Well trained observers can spot when someone is carrying a weapon by their mannerisms. Even a non-expert will notice something is up if you are walking around in the Weaver stance with a cereal box in your hand. The same goes for port arms or a combat crouch with your guitar case. The trick is to learn not exhibit 'weapon' mannerisms when you do not want to.

One way to practice is to carry the empty weapon container around and see how people observe you. If the treat you like a threat, then the gig is about up. You need to change your look or your method of carry. Another training tip is to use your chosen holster or hide method with a red plastic training gun or squirt gun of similar size (fill the squirt gun with sand to give it weight) and see if your friends spot it. Go to a public place and see if any security personnel or police seem to be following or paying undue attention to you. If they are, then they may have spotted something. Even then, take note of their actions, not just attitudes. There is no law against carrying a bright red training gun, so observe what behavior would possibly cause you to be stopped and searched. Better to find out when carrying a toy gun than the real thing. If you get searched, then you are not breaking the law with a plastic gun (in some places it is illegal to be carrying a realistic looking replica). This is good training to do before you start carrying a live gun. Get used to the placement of the holster, the weight, the shifting of your clothes and watch the reactions of those around you. It is a lot better to practice this with a non-gun than a real gun. It only takes getting caught once with a real gun to put you on record with the authorities, even if the punishment is relatively light.

Also understand that laws are constantly changing along with the standards of evidence with regard to what is illegal carrying or use f a firearm. Legal standards of "brandishing" have shifted over the years from overt threats made while pointing a gun at someone to the simple "display" of a firearm in a public place.
Reply With Quote



Market factors and how they affect prices.

[Micro]

Part 2

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Basic Economics

Lets get away from the gun-porn of the other pages and sites and get to the heart of the matter - get the better price.

There are several factors that will affect the prices of firearms and accessories. The trick is to know which factors will affect which types of sellers the most and how to use this information to your advantage when choosing a seller and getting the best price. Some sellers may have to go through great difficulty in bringing the merchandise to you, while others may get the merchandise easily enough, but market demands allow them to charge whatever they want for the items if they are in great demand. Here are the major factors to keep in mind when determining the value of a deal, apart from the standard formulas (which will be covered later) for determining the base value of a firearm.

I know this section does not have the catchy pictures that they others have, but the wise buyers will read and reread this section because this covers part of the art of understanding how to set up the better deal. This is not time for titillating pictures its time to talk turkey with the broad at the door of the whorehouse. Basic economics baby.

Market Demand: Market demand is the factor that usually determines the base value that the public places on an item. Market demand may or may not be directly linked to the availability of items since some items have only a limited market to begin with. For example, a seller may have access to a belt fed machine gun in an area where there is great demand for machine guns, but the pool of buyers may be very small and already saturated (they already have most of the guns they want). This is why most dealers in contraband prefer to deal in illegal narcotics than firearms. The narcotics market has a built-in demand mechanism because addicts need a renewable supply.

In the case of more common firearms, demands of certain types may be affected by hunting seasons (demand for good used hunting guns rises as hunting seasons approach and sharply diminishes as they end), region (urban areas have a higher demand for handguns) and ups and downs in the violent crime rate (usually down in the winter). Public demand for defensive types of firearms, especially handguns and short barrel shotguns, rises with public fears (real or imagined) of violent crime. This public fear may go up if there has been an particularly notorious crime in an area. This fear, and the accompanying market demand, is greatly increased if the perpetrators of the notorious crime are still at large and are believed to be capable of more violent crime.

The market demand for handguns tends to be a bit stronger and "bearish" at times than that of rifles and shotguns. I think the main reason is that people who buy guns tend to buy multiple guns and it is easier to keep a fairly numerous collection of handguns in a small space. That means that over a period of years, a handgun collector can have room to collect more handguns than a rifle or shotgun collector simply as a matter of the storage space available for the collection.

The price may be forced down if the seller is attempting to get rid of the weapon on the legal market while another pool of buyers, say convicted felons in the narcotics business, represent a market pool that forces prices artificially upward due to their need to protect their operations from other criminals, and the ready availability of cash and valuables among drug traffickers. Thus places with high populations of ineligible buyers have a demand for black market guns, but the demand for "papered" guns and their associated background checks may be relatively low. The market demands of drug dealers and gangs raises the price of black market guns in areas where they are most active since weapons are often an important business tool. This is most frequently evident in scenario one and two situations.

"Panic" buying among the general public also increases market demand and raises prices. This can also be the case when there is an "expected" panic and sellers will stock up and raise their prices in expectation of a panic driven demand. This was the case in early 1994 when we saw high capacity magazine prices skyrocket overnight. Market demand eventually dwindled because most buyers were simply priced out of the market. Prices for many types of magazines were eventually reduced to "normal" until they available stocks began to dwindle. The best way to avoid this problem is to buy your weapons and critical accessories well ahead of any event that could trigger panic buying.

Supply of Weapons Available for Sale: Another basic critical factor that determines the value of a gun is the supply of weapons available for sale. This factor has two basic element from the seller?s viewpoint; first, the number of weapons (or accessory items) that the seller has available for sale, and second; the number of sellers with available items for sale to the same customers. A seller with a large supply will most likely have lower prices, but this is not always the case. This seller will probably be more negotiable if you can buy in volume or if you represent a group of buyers (a form of collective bargaining). The appeal to the seller is that he (or she) will be able to assure profits in a shorter period of time and make a greater overall profit through volume of sales. A buyer may wish to seek sellers with greater supplies because they have a better selection of items, and the buyer may be able to select an item that is slightly better than the others. This is especially the case with sellers who have a large inventory of used items like surplus rifles. You can pick one with a better bore or tighter sights from the racks rather than taking the only one that a smaller dealer may have in stock. This means that a larger supply of the item usually is good news for the shopper who is looking to get the most for the money. This factor can also be used to lower the price on some item that otherwise may not be lowered, as in this following example:

I was once at a gun show where a guy had a number of backpacks for sale. He had a fairly large selection of surplus packs, but seemed adamant a getting max price out of them. I found out through our conversation that he also had more packs of the same type in boxes below the table. He wanted $40 each for the packs. I was already buying some equipment from him and offered him $25 for one of the packs. He was unwilling to go for it until I made the following offer; "Look, I?ll tell you what; if you agree to sell me a pack at $25, I?ll let you pick it out for me. It does not have to be the prettiest one in the bunch, it just has to be serviceable." He spent some time digging through the boxes and came up with one that had some stitching where old holes had been sewn up - a definite cosmetic blemish that did not affect serviceability but would have lowered its value in the eyes of a true collector (which I am not). The deal was done. I got my pack and he got some cash. The illustration is that the sale never would have taken place if he had only a small selection or I had not seen the opportunity to use his large inventory to our advantage. Otherwise, I would have never gotten a pack at that price, and his investment in inventory would have never seen a profit for years. Any seller of merchandise who buys in bulk is almost always going to be willing to get rid of slightly blemished merchandise cheap, even if it is just an imagined or intangible blemish (like a new rifle that is missing the original cardboard carton).

Another spin on the supplier with large inventory is the fear that early buyers will pick through the best items before enough have been sold to make the batch profitable. Then, the seller is stuck with less desirable merchandise that will be more difficult to sell as later buyers will feel cheated on quality. This is common with dealers of surplus weapons and equipment. The general practice with surplus rifles is to sort the batch by condition and charge a small premium for better specimens. The most common charge is $10 for "hand select". It has been my experience that the "hand select guns" bought sight unseen (the way most dealers by from distributors) are hardly better than the regular grade pieces except in only the most rudimentary cosmetic sense. It is still better to select and grade the guns yourself.

Probably the most influential supply side factor in gun pricing in the North America is the changing mosaic of laws in the US. This not only affects the US but countries where the people often get their guns from the US. It used to be fairly common for Americans to trade easily obtained firearms to Mexicans and Columbians for drugs. When the guns get harder to obtain, the price goes up in relation to the value of the drugs.

In the case of pre-ban vs. post ban guns that may still be bought sold and traded, the price increases can be staggering. The limited although large supply of guns that may legally have certain features ads the value of the implied license to these guns. Thus a Pre-ban Bushmaster CAR-15 clone with a telescoping stock does not cost any more or less to produce than that companies' Dissipator rifle, but the implied license of the "pre-ban" gun with the telescoping stock adds over $800 in value. In the case of Class III weapons like the Mp5, the price can be even more dramatic, with the value of a "pre-ban" dealer sample being five times that of a "post-ban" dealer sample with the only difference being the right of the dealer to retain the the more costly gun after quitting the business.

Convenience to the Seller: This factor will determine the actual price paid in a particular deal. Generally speaking, sellers who have the most convenience in closing the deal are usually more willing to settle for a lower price. A good example is found in local want ads. If you are willing to travel a long distance to buy a gun from a seller who does not have to travel, then you are assuming a greater part of the trouble to close the deal and generally are entitled to a better price than the customer who demands that the seller deliver the goods for inspection before the buyer decides to go through with the deal. This is an important factor when negotiating with private sellers in "gray market guns" (guns that have no paperwork but are otherwise legal, i.e. not stolen or used in a crime) who may not which to assume the risk of contact with a dangerous client or unfriendly regulatory authorities. In this respect, the buyer is entitled to a lower price if he or she assumes more of the possible risk in completing the deal or relieves the seller of having to assume risks in order to get a higher price for the item(s). An example of the use of this element is as follows:

Seller: "I think that this old rifle is worth several thousand dollars, Joe tells me that I can get two or three grand for it any day of the week down in LA because I have a case of ammo and plenty of spare magazines, not to mention this full auto conversion kit."

Buyer: "Sure, you can find some crack pusher with that kind of cash to give you for it, he might even let you live long enough to get out of his neighborhood alive with all of that cash. Or you might find a fairly honest buyer after a few weeks, but when the word gets out that you have one of these for sale, the BATF will get interested in it too, especially if you are selling the conversion kit with it and you never registered it during the ?98 amnesty period. I would not have driven over here if I were not serious about buying it, but I can?t afford to get reamed every time I buy a used gun from somebody. I am right here right now and I?ll save you all of that trouble and give you $1500.00 on the spot and the deal is done."

Seller: "Yeah, I need the money for a down payment on a jet ski and I want to get it early in the summer, I guess I am better off selling it to you right now."

This element is the most important one to remember. Variations of the above script are the most effective in securing a good price from a private seller, especially if the seller has not openly advertised that the item is for sale (assuming that you became aware of the items for sale through word of mouth or some similar means). It is the "convenience to seller" element is the one most exploited by pawn brokers and second hand dealers when buying items from individuals. Pawn brokers often buy firearms at 1/2 of the wholesale price and take the accessories for free. Sellers go for it because the pawn broker is always willing to offer quick cash for the item.

The general theme of the buyers; talk must contain these messages if the buyer expects to get a lower price:

I am willing to buy now

I understand that you may get more money elsewhere but with more work and grater risk

That work and risk are not worth the potential reward

I am not here to rip you off

I will appreciate the deal that you are giving me

This is an easy deal for you the seller

This is a low risk deal for you the seller

This situation and my offer are the best you have

Sellers who are willing to take steps to deliver items to the buyer are entitled to some consideration for the cost of hauling cargo. A seller who agrees to deliver to the place determined by the buyer deserves some extra compensation for his inconvenience as well as a seller who agrees to deliver at a time of the buyer?s choosing.

A seller who is willing to hold and store an item for a particular buyer may be entitled to a higher price (to be determined before the deal is finally struck) if it could be reasonably expected that the seller might have passed up a quicker sale to another buyer if the item had not been held over for the original buyer. While extra charges for lay-away deals are rare, they are common among small dealers who have significant amounts of money tied up in the merchandise that is being held for a buyer. These extra charges are usually included in the price of the item and are not charged extra per se, but sellers who are faced with having to hold an item for a buyer without getting paid for it all up front are usually less likely to lower their asking prices during negotiation (haggling). Larger businesses generally do not charge extra lay-away charges, but they also do not usually have negotiable prices either. Sellers who assume the combined inconvenience of lay away storage and risk that the buyer will not return and complete the deal by paying for the merchandise have a right to expect to keep at least some of the deposited money (usually not more than 10% of the value of the entire package). Thus a 10% deposit is usually the minimum deposit expected by a seller who is offering lay-away time payments.

These factors generally only apply when people are willing to accept them as true. That meaning there are certain people who remain convinced that only their concerns are important and that they are the ones entitled to the best deals regardless of the circumstances or efforts they require of a seller. I have found that these stubborn people only succeed in life because they take undue advantage of others and mistake luck for skill in negotiating. To put it bluntly, nobody likes doing business with a shithead, but we all end up doing it some of the time because we have to, but in the end, people will avoid doing business with a shithead if there are better alternatives and the shitheads will invariably end up at the back of the line where they belong.

Risk Assumed by Seller: Sellers who assume risks to make merchandise available to customers generally are entitled to be fairly compensated for their risk. Smugglers and black marketeers have traditionally benefited from the risk element throughout the centuries. The two greatest risks a seller makes are getting ripped off and getting busted. Even an entirely legal gun shop owner deals with many legal risks as laws and regulatory enforcement become more restrictive and geared toward driving legitimate dealers out of business. Of course, a shrewd seller will maximize the perception of perceived risk in order to force the prices up.

As an example of a hapless couple of would-be gun runners who I read about in a Kalifornia newspaper. A Nevada gun runner who was arrested in Kalifornia with a number of SKS rifles, Tec-9s and a few AR-15s. He and his partner were canvassing the saloons and gun shops in a rural mountain area known for meth labs and pot gardens and populated by a large contingent of ex-convicts in attempts to sell the guns to anybody with the money. Of course, the "dealers" expected a premium for their services (doorstep delivery of guns that they had "smuggled" from Nevada). They were unaware, until too late, that they had made several crucial mistakes. First, they were selling guns that were the same as, or very similar to, those available already through legal channels; Second, they assumed that their target market had enough people with both the desire and the funds to buy the guns; Third, they assumed that all of their aggressive sales activities would go unnoticed by citizens hostile to any gun trade. Fourth, they offended some buyers by treating them like worse criminals than they already were by assuming that all of their potential buyer were ex-convicts and drug dealers. They were arrested and their merchandise confiscated by the police.

On the other hand, illicit gun dealers in New York City and the surrounding boroughs enjoy a degree of steady success buying guns in neighboring states and offering their New York customers the convenience of local availability of firearms. New York gunrunners enjoy some of the highest profit margins in the country, primarily due to the risks that they assume, and the availability of cash to their target market. New York gun runners pick their clientele very carefully to gain better profits and avoid rip-offs. These gun runners favor upscale buyers who do not have legal access to guns but need them for legitimate self protection. Many of these dealers enjoy some tolerance from the authorities since they serve a legitimate social purpose that happens to be illegal.

Sellers (legitimate or otherwise) also assume risk when they set up shop in high crime - low clearance areas. If the seller is risking a robbery in order to make the goods available to the buyer, then the seller has a right to expect a higher price if that risk is not equally assumed by the buyer. A seller who is accustomed to assuming risk (and getting the rewards for it) may be expected to accept a lower price if the buyer offers a low risk transaction even though the seller is willing and able to assume the greater risk. An example would be a buyer in a quiet suburban neighborhood who wishes to conduct business with a gun runner who is used to servicing the hoodlums in the bad part of town. The gunrunner is not risking robbery in the quaint bedroom community and is not entitled to "hazard pay" for servicing the customer.

Sellers who extend credit to buyers also have a right to expect a higher price for the item. This does not apply in the same regards to sellers who arrange for the buyer to get credit from a third party. One should note that gun shops in some areas have limited partnerships with loan companies similar to arrangements between loan companies and used car dealers and appliance / furniture stores. In cases where the seller arranges for credit to be provided by a third party, the party that is profiting from the interest has the first responsibility to reward the seller, although this consideration is usually built into the item?s selling price anyway. The seller may consider the forms and procedure to be such a burden that it entitles him to a higher price, but this most often comes in the form of a stubborn adherence to the asking price rather than an extra charge, unless the seller operates on an extremely thin profit margin (like most gun wholesalers).

Convenience to Buyer: Most of the time, a buyer who demands extra convenience and services is expected to pay for them in the form of extra charges, or a higher price. Sometimes it is worth paying a little more at the local gun shop than it is to pay at the big sporting goods store in the next town, especially if the local gun shop owner is willing to take a trade-in and maybe offer some kind of creative payment plan (these will be covered later). The local gun shop owner may also be willing to perform simple tuning and repairs of the gun; relieving the buyer of the trouble of sending the gun back to the factory for a simple adjustment or repair. Convenient repair services earn points in my book for the dealer - especially since so many new guns need some work right out of the box.

Convenience may also be a factor if you simply do not have the time or resources to check and compare prices with every possible seller, or if you wish to buy an item that is not available on a regular basis (like a used HK rifle from a private seller). In an information age, it can be easy to get estimates as to the availability and price of a gun though the nationwide network of dealers, but people know that time is a factor in the price, the sooner you want it, the more it will cost. Assume that a price difference of 10% to 20% will exist. On a cheap gun, it just is not worth jerking around every dealer. On a $1000 gun it may matter. Generally speaking, almost any gun can be made available to a licensed dealer within two weeks at the regular wholesale price. Don't believe it if the dealer tells you prices or availability of new legal) guns will vary from region to region. For used guns, it may be another matter. A dealer who is willing to spend long distance phone tolls and hours on the phone negotiating for a rare gun or specific modifications is entitled to a reward. Remember, however, that it is fair to expect any businessperson to work for their profit. Special orders for specific firearms that are normally or easily available are a convenience for the buyer, but the deal is generally accepted to be more of a convenience to the seller, thus entitling the buyer to a lower price unless the seller already has a very similar item in stock. An example would be a buyer who wishes to get a special order discount price of $140 on a Russian SKS when the dealer already has two on the shelf at $180. The dealer will most likely refuse to special order the gun so that they buyer can get the discount price. On the other hand, a buyer who offers to special order a Barrett 82 from a dealer who does not normally stock them is entitled to pay much lower than the $8,500 retail price which includes a $2,000 markup from the wholesale cost.

Some behaviors in this are out of line for the buyer and or the seller. A dealer who demands full retail for a special order is out of line - unless the buyer refuses to put any money down. Generally, a special order will mean that the buyer should put down a 10% to 20% non-refundable deposit for the gun. This is commonly equal to the cost of shipping and any restocking charges form the distributor. The dealer also has the right to pay the remaining value of the item and keep it for retail. A buyer does not have the right to demand that the dealer match any lower price on an order simply because the buyer found a lower price later at some other place. If the buyer backs out of the deal then the deposit is kept. The dealer does not have the right to sell the gun to another buyer who may happen in and make an offer on the gun when the dealer has it. Nor does the dealer have the right to cancel the deal and keep the money unless there is a really good reason. As a dealer, I cancelled deals and kept deposits on two occasions. The first was at the request of the buyer, who decided that he could not afford me to build a rifle for him. I had already spent the money on some parts that were not easily refundable since I started fitting them. In good faith, I gave the guy a crossbow that was worth a little more than half the deposit. On the other occasion, I had gotten a small deposit on a shotgun from a guy and started the waiting period and transfer paperwork required by California law. A few days later I saw him assault a man with a baseball bat. The assault was totally unjustified and I informed him that no way was I ever giving him the shotgun, I was keeping his money (most of it went to the $14 state fees) and he was no longer welcome at my place of business.

One other time, I was the buyer who placed an order for two AR type receivers. I was really broke at the time they finally arrived and did not have the money to cover the deal when the dealer got them in. He gave me a few days to get the money then sold them to a cash buyer for more than what I would have bought them for. He was happy with the deal and I accepted it since I had put very little money down on the order.

Orders placed with illicit dealers need to be very clearly understood since there is no written contract. Everything must function on trust. Avoid paying much of a deposit unless the seller is known to be trustworthy. One friend of mine had placed an order with a part time contraband dealer for Glocks at prices that were too good to be true ($150) per copy. The dealer said that he needed money up front in order to get the guns. I declined to put money in the deal but promised to pay $200 each for two if I could see them first and they were not listed somewhere as stolen in the US. The story was that they were some surplus from a large South American distributor who got them at low bulk order prices without import taxes. Needless to say my friend relayed the story to me about how the truckload of guns was hijacked and lost in Mexico. Of course he did not blame our "friend" for the rip-off. I figured he was bullshit from the start when he never showed any of the merchandise he talked about. The "friend" was later imprisoned for killing two Mexican drug dealers who came to him for a refund on money lost through a similar "I don't have the goods because I got ripped off scheme".

My experience with contraband dealers and "wise-guys" is that the real ones have merchandise to show and the bulshitters have only talk. The real deal guy may not have cases of hardware in the back of his van but he will have one or two samples around for potential customers to check out. I have seen mafia types print out "gun sheets" with pictures and prices. Usually these are about worthless, but one guy in Chicago used the novel idea of Polaroid photos of the merchandise next to a fairly recent Time Magazine. The Polaroid photos show that whoever took the photo had direct access to the guns recently. Modern players will have pictures posted somewhere on the internet and can e-mail pictures of what they have available.

As mentioned in the Convenience to Buyer section, credit also plays a role in convenience. A buyer who gets an item on credit is expected to pay for the privilege, whether it represents convenience (where the buyer does not have the money in a large lump sum but can and will pay for the item in two or more smaller payments) or risk (where the buyer may take possession of the item and later be unwilling or unable to make any or all of the remaining payments that were agreed upon in negotiation). Credit cards reduce the risk and convenience parties for both parties about equally, although the credit surcharges (2%-5%) charged by the credit card company to a business may be passed on to the buyer. The companies argue that the average cash transaction costs a retailer around 3% due to the costs of supervision and security needed for handling cash. I think this is probably true, but most people still value cash more than electronic money.

Risk to Buyer: Risks assumed by the buyer also entitle the buyer to a lower price and or more goods for the money. A buyer who assumes risks not posed by the seller is in more of a position to convince the seller to consider this when negotiating the price. It is a lot like the guy who had ordered the guns from the part time contraband dealer. The con would not have been realistic if the price had been high, but if the guy still had nothing to show,

In situations where the seller himself poses the greatest risk to the buyer, the dynamic between the buyer and other potential buyers comes into play. The best example would be a situation where the seller is a particularly fearsome gang member who is known for ripping people off but has offered to sell some items that you or your group really needs. You can easily discourage the other potential buyers from doing business with this character to the point that his target market is reduced to where the only market demand is yours, and you know what you are willing to pay for the item since nobody else will risk doing business with him. You may not even have to discourage anybody else from doing business with the untrustworthy seller, his reputation will do it for him. You, as the risk taking buyer, may go all out and attempt to conduct business in good faith or assume the expense and inconvenience of extra security measures which are paid for through savings on the cost of the items, or assume the risk involved in finding another seller of the hard to get item or quantity of items. Businesses do this all the time. Those who deem themselves as stepping down to deal with risky folks demand prices in their favor. A large part of the negotiating process is where the buyer and seller establish themselves in the pecking order of who is the more legitimate party entitled to a better price.

Actual affordability of the item: All the desire in the world is not going to sell an item that a buyer simply cannot afford. The biggest roadblock to the illegal gun market is the cost of quality firearms. In my talks with various legal and illegal gun dealers, I have found that the real affordability number of a gun is around $600. For an impulse purchase, the price needs to be closer to $200. Part of the issue surrounds whether or not the deal can be made affordable with the use of credit. New person to person credit card services like PayPal can help, but real gun enthusiasts usually have maxed out credit cards anyway. That tends to be the breaking point between an "affordable" gun and an "expensive" gun in most people's eyes. Perhaps that is about the maximum about of money that a man is capable of hiding from his wife. Either way, like the gun runner attempting to sell $1,000 assault rifles to penniless ex-convicts, a dealer is going to have trouble finding buyers for guns that cost more than a week's income to the casual buyer. A buyer who "needs" a gun will no doubt pay more, but there is a limit to that too, especially when comparing a costly gun to available cheaper models that offer the same performance. A good example is the Colt Python which was withdrawn from production because the manufacturer simply could not compete with the price of cheaper guns that offered similar levels of performance. That has not made the Python worth less money, but it has made it harder to sell. Thus a seller is going to have some difficulty selling a high priced weapon in an indifferent market regardless of how good the deal is.

On the other hand, a buyer willing and able to pay top dollar for a premium item is usually able to find someone willing to deliver it. Thus a motivated buyer who gets the word out that they will pay top dollar for an item usually gets what they want as long as they are willing to pay for it.

Warranty: Some sellers will warrant their merchandise. Legitimate retail dealers essentially pass on the manufacturers warranty while most private party sellers make some guarantees as to serviceability. Demand some guarantee on the gun or a very low price - always. Even used guns will commonly have some implied warranty since most manufacturers will fix their goods from a public relations and liability concern. If a Ruger pistol jams repeatedly at a bad time and the user is killed, the word will get out that their gun is junk. It will not matter if they got it new or what the warranty actually said it would cover. Word gets out that it is junk and that's that. So what happens? they never print it, but they essentially put a lifetime warranty on all of their guns but reserve the right to refuse it if they think someone abused or just plain wore out the gun. Most major manufacturers do the same thing on the commercial legal market. Note that many AR 15 type rifles that were made from parts have any type of factory warranty. Same goes for home built 1911 type .45 automatics and guns made by companies now extinct. No warranty service available means drop the price. Warranty, written or implied, means higher price.

Some black market dealers and clandestine manufacturers will warrant their work. Obviously, everything is on the honor system, but honor is all these people have since the law will not protect them. It is the double edged sword of reputation vs. unwanted publicity in the underworld. Generally this reputation eventually translates into the seller's place in the food chain.


Used Weapons and Gear



Most survivors end up with at least one or two used guns in the arsenal. Used guns tend to be a better deal these days than used cars. Why? because most guns have been built to last a lifetime, are used very little, and sell for less money used than they sell for new. In many cases, used guns actually perform better than new guns of the same make and model. The reason is that most guns need some break-in when they are new in order to work the burrs out of the machined parts and get the wear parts to settle into a wear pattern. Used guns usually have the problems just worked out. In comparison - used cars generally have the problems just starting.

Rifle match competitors, military snipers and experienced hunters have all told me of rifles that simply did not shoot at their best accuracy until they had a few hundred rounds through the barrel. Some even apply mild abrasives to bullets in order to accelerate the break in of a barrel and get better accuracy sooner. The process is known as fire lapping.

Finicky collectors demand that guns be in pristine condition in order to command full value. The survivalist should only be a stickler for utility. A few scratches and dings in the stock or scrapes around the magazine well are of little concern - except that they will affect the price and you will expect a price structure for a 'shooter' not a 'safe queen. Even broken guns can usually be fixed by replacing parts but pricing is going to be affected by condition. A normal standard of ethics on firearms and common accessories has been adopted my most collectors. For more detail, CLICK HERE.

The survivor must, however, not compromise on function. Your purpose is to use the gun, not keep it perfect for some future collector to tell lies about how they got it new and kept it so nice all along. You are not the damn museum or a library. I will go over various conditions and prices later, but ALWAYS check the following on a gun. These things will determine if it is worth buying or not.

Most sellers will not want you to strip down a gun unless you have already agreed on a price. Establish that you are a serious buyer, not just a shopper and the seller will usually let you go further. It is also not customary for the buyer to be able to test fire a gun before purchase. That is what makes the buying so tricky.

Check the bore for condition. Use a bore light, reflector, or just hold the think up to a light and look down the barrel make sure it is unloaded). Look for flat spots in the rifling, pits or gouges. Small pits are common on surplus guns and may not affect accuracy that much. They usually form in the corners of the grooves. Pits that stretch across both lands and grooves are bad and will affect accuracy more. Look for discoloration at the end of the bore. On larger caliber guns, you can look at the muzzle from the side and see an inch or so down. Good sharp rifling is what you want to see. If it is polygonal, look for the consistency of the polygon. Discoloration is probably copper residue from bullets. A thick gray residue is lead. It is a bitch to clean out. The worst is old hardened cosmoline residue. It can be found in older surplus guns that have been in storage for a few decades. It can eventually be cleaned out, but it may conceal pitting. I have had fair luck scrubbing as much as I could then burning the rest loose with full metal jacket ammo at the shooting range.

Check the action for smoothness and operation. Move the levers and bolts. See if they bind or stop anywhere in their movement. Move it both fast and slow. If it binds or stops it may be prone to jamming. Feel if the springs are too stiff or too soft. Feel is it is smooth or gritty. Shake the gun and see of it rattles. Generally a gun starts out in life as tight and gritty, then becomes tight and smooth, then gets looser as it wears. Eventually, some parts will get so loose and worn in that they don't work properly. Overzealous gunsmith tuning will accelerate the process as will an abusive break in period (lots of shooting with little cleaning). In many cases, a person getting rid of a gun that does not work right is simply getting rid of a gun that has not yet been broken in.

Experts commonly disagree on what is better, proper fitting or a proper break in. Only with a used gun will you get both. Proper fitting at the factory tends to ad a lot to the price of a gun, and it will make only a negligible cosmetic difference. In reality most gun buyers are simply unwilling to pay extra for a well fitted factory gun, but they will be the first in line for a used gun that was custom fitted by a good local gunsmith. This is generally the better gun than the well broken in one, but it will usually cost more. The typical "action and trigger job" performed on a police handgun costs around $150. One advantage of this over a break in is that it does not put wear on the bore and usually preserves the cosmetic finish of the gun. Otherwise, a gun tends to need a few hundred rounds fired through it before all of the parts settle in right.

Many guns, especially assault rifles, may have certain illegal parts, combinations of parts or configurations. Study what you are shopping for before you buy. Do not interrogate the seller on the pedigree of a gun unless it is relevant to the price. You really need to research these things yourself before going into it with someone. This is especially the case with regard to pre-ban vs post-ban assault rifles that have different features.

You always have to be on the lookout for problems that can be nearly impossible to fix on what may be a decent looking gun.

I once went to buy a used Valmet rifle that was on consignment at a local pawn shop. It seemed in pretty enough condition, but I saw a dark spot in the bore. It could have been a piece of cleaning patch or even a bug that went in there and died (seen that a few times). I went back to the pawn shop with a cleaning rod and some patches. Three patches came out with rust. I pointed out that new barrels were not readily available for that rifle and that the rust would either effect accuracy or require a lot of effort to clean out. Even then it would leave pits in the bore that would be vulnerable to rusting again. On top of that, the rifle's tritium sights were long since burned out (they have a ten year life and the rifle was about fifteen years old). He would not hear it and said that since the rifle was all original, it was worth the collector value, but with a swapped out barrel and non-factory replacement sights it would be worth less. The gun would not suit my purposes without repairs. We had no deal.

There are also people who get rid of guns that have problems. If you frequent gun shops in a certain area, look out for the guns that keep turning up back on the market. If a particular gun is on the market from two or three different owners in the space of a year, it likely has a problem that none of the people want to deal with. It may be a problem that could be dealt with through a simple warranty repair, but it is still a problem.

General rules to go by:

Only the guns and magazines themselves will hold high value when used, other items such as cases, bags, optics and cleaning kits will not hold their value nearly as well.

High quality professional grade equipment is always desirable, but does not mean it will trade used at high value. Often, the limited market for such items is balanced by limited availability so such things can be a crap shoot. Sometimes you get really fortunate, other times you are lucky to get the item anywhere below retail.

Night vision optics and electronics only hold their value if they are still current issue and repair service is available on them. Obsolete equipment is of much less value, although it is still of use even though not state of the art.

Here are some things to look for in many commonly available used guns.

AR 15 - Look for a shot out bore. The barrel can be replaced, but it will cost. Look for any cracking or deformation of the lower receiver, this part cannot be easily replaced. Many "parts kit" guns have been built using substandard parts. Worst of all are certain Colt rifles that were made in the early 1990's that took non-standard internal parts that cost twice as much to replace as standard parts. Warning signs for substandard components are a plastic trigger guard, plastic magazine release button and plastic slip ring. Test the trigger action by firing the action (releasing the hammer), hold the trigger back and cock the hammer all the way back; then release the trigger as slowly as you can. If the hammer simply cocks itself on the trigger, the action is good; if it releases, then you have a problem with worn or out of spec internal parts. In a worst case scenario, you could have a bad receiver with the pin holes drilled out of spec. This may or may not be corrected by hand fitting the parts. Be aware of any full auto parts that may be in the gun. It is a felony (in the US) to have certain M16 parts installed in a semi automatic version of this rifle, even though the gun may not fire automatic.

AK types - Check out the barrel, that is the part that is very difficult to replace on these rifles, also check for warpage or deformation in the receiver. It cannot be easily replaced either. Basically if you have an AK with a bad receiver or barrel, you might as well strip the gun down for spare parts and dispose of the rest. Paratrooper folding stocks on these are often flimsy and damaged. Extend the stock and check for damage. These are also difficult to repair. Internal parts are fairly easy to replace, but certain models are not compatible with others.

Ruger Mini-14 - Check for a burned out or worn out barrel. Also check for a warped or twisted receiver. Run the cocking rod back and forth to see if it stops or binds. Spare parts can be very difficult to get for these rifles so make sure everything is there. It is common for used ones to have burned out barrels. See which magazines come with the gun. Many high capacity magazines made for this rifle are substandard and simply do not work at all. Some feed well enough, but the last shot hold open device will not work with them. This is tolerable, but you should be aware of it.

Mossberg Shotguns - These are guns that can wear out from regular use. Check for sloppiness and binding in the actions, especially in the newer 500 and 590 series pump action guns. Also check for missing parts. The trigger assembly can get loose and sloppy with wear. Once one of these guns is beat, it is pretty much a pile of spare parts. Note that older "crown grade" Mossbergs are tougher and more durable than newer models.

SPAS-12 - Check to see if the gun is frozen up on the inside. It is a common ailment with these and parts are very difficult to get - even if you can disassemble this complex gun to do the repairs. Early models with a lever type safety had a recall because you could still fire one if you pull the trigger hard enough with the safety engaged.

Any Spanish made 1911 type pistol - Check to see if it takes standard 1911 type magazines. Many of the Llama guns to not. In fact, these guns are similar to mil-spec, but many parts are not interchangeable.

Any HK 91 or G3 clone - Check for binding or misalignment in the action. Make sure the mag well and mag catch work as designed. Check for damaged sights or scope mounting surfaces. Also check the barrel - they are almost impossible to replace on these rifles. Check the trigger as you would an AR-15 type rifle.

FAL rifles and clones - Including the Stg-58 and L1A1. Check for a warped or bent receiver. Barrels usually hold up well on these rifles, but they may be pitted from corrosive ammo. Inspect the bore for pitting. If it is very dark, it is probably pitted. Also check the trigger action. It is common for the cheaper clone and parts kit guns to have loose rear sights that ruin accuracy. Replacement with upgraded sights usually solves the problem. Parts are usually available, so if a FAL is broken, you can deal with it.

Revolvers - Check for sloppiness in the cylinder when the hammer is cocked. Cycle the action (unloaded) as fast as you can and see of it stops or binds, If so, the gun has a timing problem or broken springs. Timing problems are deceptively complex and tricky to fix.
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Part 3

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Black Market guns (Europe)





Contrary to popular hype, European gun control does not mean that European citizens lack access to firearms. In fact, street prices of more common firearms in European capitals are not much higher than what one would expect to pay in a gun shop in the US.

London has become famous for two things: Strict gun control and easy availability of firearms for their criminal classes. Generally, shopping for black market weapons on a small scale is not like browsing gun shops in places where the weapons are legal. Browsing is bad form and you must be prepared to buy once the connection is met. Extended negotiation or waffling on a deal is bad form and more likely than not going to burn the possibility of any future contact with the other party. Selections are often very limited. Unlike a conventional commercial purchase, the buyer will probably not be able to dictate the make and model of gun that he will buy, but will probably be able to request the type. IE, an automatic or revolver, and dictate the caliber. If the weapon is an assault rifle, the buyer will probably be able to pick the make and model, as long as it is some derivative of an AK.

Smugglers will favor compact weapons that have a high profit ratio. This usually means handguns which are cheap in the source country and can be sold at a healthy enough markup for the chain of middlemen involved. The selection of guns available in London is a pretty good example of this.

The Uzi pictured in this British illustration is probably not the model commonly available there, but the picture is meant to represent the four most available guns in London. Prices range from 200 to 300 British pounds but I suspect the Uzi is a little more. The most likely Uzi models they have available are the full size ones. While the Brits credit the availability to the Israelis, they conveniently leave out that copies are in production in at least four other countries. This includes China, Croatia and quite possibly Iran.

Source countries include most East European countries other than Poland and Russia, and China through middlemen in Jamaica. Most likely, the Jamaican connection somehow involves Cuba. Rumor has it that many newer model quality guns on the black market are products of Croatia being marketed by a loose alliance of "former" intelligence agents also responsible for the infamous "Amsterdam cell phone gun" which is a handgun built to closely resemble a cell phone.

We are researching how the connections are made for these guns in Europe, but what I found is that black Europeans tend to have more ready access than white Europeans, but the white Europeans tend to have access to the more costly higher quality weapons.

The other sources of black market guns in Europe are "repaired" guns that were once deactivated war trophies traded about by collectors. The craftsmanship involved in "reactivating" the war trophy guns makes them a costly item traded about in antique collecting circles as a "special" item among close knit associates usually connected with government of one type or another and frequently retired military personnel.

There is also a limited business in stolen military weapons, but it has been hard to determine how extensive it is. My guess is that it is pretty minimal given the high security at most military installations, although Russian army deserters commonly take weapons with them to sell once they reach closer to the west. In such cases, the weapons will usually be folding stock AK derivatives like the AK74 or AK 100

What can prove even more difficult than obtaining guns in Europe is getting supplies of ammunition. The old rule of "buck a bullet" often applies. Sometimes (like in the UK) there is an "underground" of reloaders manufacturing ammunition from components on a small scale and secret indoor shooting ranges. Otherwise, the ammo is smuggled in and the smugglers expect to make a healthy profit.

This select clientele is usually former military personnel employed as bodyguards and sometimes mercenaries. Unlike the US, mercenaries are openly recruited in several European countries. These people usually have better connections for weapons, but are more select and secretive about who they deal with.

I have been reading reports of Albanian and Middle Eastern heroin running gangs using heavier military weapons in France, including one apparent gang leader who fired several shots from an RPG-7 at police in a long drawn out car chase and gun battle at an apartment complex.

The reality of the European black market arms situation is that the relative ease with which guns can be smuggled in from places where they are cheap

From what I have gathered, a number of connections for the guns are made the following ways: At large parties and nightclubs, especially the "underground" nightclubs where narcotics are commonly available. These will be frequented by gangs, organized crime, and military deserters.


Through professional bodyguards, mercenaries and the organizations that broker their services. This includes a number of the "bodyguard" and "mercenary" schools operating in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa, often through a loose alliance of "retired" military and intelligence personnel. Gaining the trust of these people can be difficult, but once they trust you, they can make almost anything available, up to and including combat aircraft. It can be very difficult to sift the bullshitters from the real players so don't put money up front until you can see some serious evidence that they can deliver.


Through loose associations of militaria collectors and former gun collectors and dealers. Most are under active investigations by law enforcement, so they are usually pretty paranoid, but they do have access to the weapons.


Those who I found often will not have access to weapons or have them but are unwilling to sell them off:

Political and "terror" organizations like the IRA and Orangemen. They have weapons, but jealously guard their contacts and almost never sell them off. Marxist organizations rarely sell weapons to anybody other than "fellow travelers" in allied Marxist organizations. The trick is to find the occasional deserter or corrupt individual in one of these organizations who can be convinced to give something up for cash or something of value.

Skinhead and Neo Nazis. They may be ultra-violent, but they are mainly brawlers and vandals, not bomb makers or gunfighters. Weapons they use are usually improvised and disposable and nearly all arms dealers in Europe avoid dealing with the skinheads. They are usually under active investigation by any number of agencies thus it becomes very risky for most arms dealers to associate with them and thus what weapons the skinheads get, they rarely are willing to let loose of. They do usually know where and how much the weapons cost, but are usually looking to make a connection rather than become the connection.

In general, the survivor in Europe is often going to be on the same ground as the criminals until some events happen that separate the good people from the bad people. That is not to say certain weapon permits are impossible to obtain in Europe. In fact, there is a growing international movement for the rights of citizen's to own weapons which is challenging Marxist policy in many west European countries.


Illicit, professional smuggler

As long as there are territorial governments in this world, there will be laws between them that differ and people who are willing to profit from the transfer of cargo from a place where something is available to a place where something is not readily available by law. These folks are known worldwide as smugglers. Weapons are generally regarded as medium bulk cargo and are not a favorite high profit item in industrialized nations. The main reasons for this are the durability of weapons and the profit to cargo volume ratio of guns versus more lucrative contraband such as narcotics. Firearms can easily have a useful life of a hundred years as long as ammunition is available. Once you import a gun and put it into an economy, it circulates for several years and just ads to the available supply. Profit margins diminish as the market becomes glutted. Narcotic supplies, however must me constantly replenished, thus ensuring profit for the career smuggler. Ten pounds of just about any narcotic will be worth more profit to a smuggler than your average assault rifle. More likely, you would be able to buy weapons smuggles in "spare room" of some other shipment or mixed in with bulk cargo. Another option would be to smuggle in key components of weapons while constructing the rest at the destination or only smuggle those key components which are otherwise unobtainable. An example would be receiver and action assemblies. Stocks and grip assemblies can be made in almost any basic hobby shop.
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Illicit, professional contraband dealer



These are the guys who will deal in anything that is illegal and can turn a profit. The classic hustler who sold fake Rolex watches from a trenchcoat and moved up to selling guns from the trunk of a car. Or maybe he is the guy at the end of the bar in the hick town who locals know they can get "certain things from". Contraband dealers tend to frequent places where one might expect to find other sorts of contraband. Since guns and ammunition usually originate in places where they are legitimate goods, they migrate to place where they are in demand regardless of intervening laws. Look for the modes of transport and you will find those who broker the goods. Near ports, train stations, small airports and truck stops. Someone will know a little about what passes through and who might be dealing in it. Every city of any significance anywhere will have black marketeers of some sort plying their trade. The trick is usually to hook up with them without being burned in the process of trying to make contact and make a deal. It is important for the streetwise survivor to learn who these people are and where and how to make contact with them in a given area.

Expect these characters to be ambiguous rather than direct. You may never know if you are dealing with the real guy or an intermediary, but that really does not matter much. If they can deliver the goods, then that is good enough.

Narcotics are commonly in the circle of contraband dealers. Narcotics generally pose greater profit for smugglers than dealers because smugglers must calculate the value of cargo to the weight and ease of smuggling. On the other hand, the contraband dealer looks at the risk to profit ratio of each transaction. A dealer must risk himself several times to conduct ten worth small cocaine sales in order to secure $500 to $1,000 in profit. Of those transactions, most are to psychologically unstable drug addicts who may turn hostile at any time. The drug addict also has several opportunities to turn in his supplier. Also, the dealer often has to establish some sort of relationship with the buyer in order to justify and verify the quality of the goods warrants the price. Thus not all contraband dealers look at transactions as strictly a profit issue. Quite often, they specialize a bit and decide to stay out of certain lines of merchandise, which may be considered the "turf" of a potentially vindictive rival.

The contraband gun dealer on the other hand can show goods to a stranger where the quality is usually self evident. If it looks, feels and takes down like an UZI then it probably is an UZI - probably. Remember that gun dealers; legal or illegal, will be highly concerned with security. They do not want their goods used against them.

Contraband gun dealers exist in a world of trust. If the merchandise is bad, there is hardly any recourse for warranty work. A reputation eventually get out and thus has some influence on how the transaction is to be done. Savvy dealers and buyers can generally arrange for weapons to be tested, but then again, some weapons simply cannot be tested by every prospective buyer. For example, you should not expect to be able to test one disposable rocket launcher if you are in the market for only one.

Check around about a dealer if you can. Be very subtle and ambiguous if you have to. Nobody wants to do business with a blabber mouth. Find out if anybody got burned by the guy. Find out if they guy has been busted recently and is working as an informer. Find out if he is associated with any groups. Remember though, if you are asking questions, more people will know of your business with the dealer.

My experience and observation is that these general rules are about the same anywhere on the planet when you are buying black market weapons. Whether it is a back alley in Chicago, a weekend market day in some Balkan village, or some rain soaked park by the rail terminal in the seedy side of London, it is all about the same. Much of this is simple procedure and body language, so actual fluency in a spoken language may not even be relevant to the deal.

Some general rules in conducting business with a contraband dealer:

1.Avoid going alone and have armed backup.-Hopefully you can get away with dealing this way, but sometimes the contraband dealers will simply refuse to make contact unless they feel fully secure in the meeting. It is a judgment call on how far you want to trust one of these characters. Generally, diplomacy and security are a delicate balance in any illegal or potentially illegal transaction.

2. Show the money so they know you mean business. Nobody really enjoys wasting their time with a loser or someone who is just browsing, money talks, bullshit walks. Flash the cash and they will most likely treat you like a real buyer, not some jerk-off who wants to pretend to be a player. Note that you will get better results showing money than you will showing a fancy car or clothes. The gun runner knows you will probably not trade him your car for anything and he does not want your clothes, he wants money.

3. Show weapons so they know you mean business. Nobody likes being bullied in a deal or being ripped off, and robbers really prefer not to fight even if they have a high chance of winning. Going into a deal where you can't go running to the cops if you get burned means you are on your own for security. Better to just show you have something to back you up than pulling some shitty attitude like a bluffer. This does not mean pointing or threatening anyone, just diplomatically but realistically showing you are for real. This can even sometimes be done in the context of offering a possible trade. Also, wheeler dealer "gun guys" have something of an unwritten rule not to sell weapons to someone who does not already have some. People sometimes get weird when they go from unarmed to armed, but if the dealers see that you are already armed, they figure your disposition is not going to get unpredictable if they give you weapons. On the other hand, if they meet you unarmed, how can they tell how you can handle being armed once they do the deal with you? You will get more mileage out of showing that you have weapons in a class equal to or better than what you are buying.

4. If you kill the business contact, the deal is probably not going to get anywhere. Obviously, you may have decided ahead of time what to do if a deal all of a sudden goes to shit and someone throws down, but also realize that killing someone is probably going to prevent you from ever doing business with them. You may have to bite your tongue and have patience to make a deal go through. Note this rule is a two way street. If they kill you, the business deal and any future business deals die with you. It can be a smart move to allude to possible or promised future deals with that seller or group of sellers if the deal goes right.

5. Show the money again so they know you mean business, not a fight. It is smart to show the money more than once in the process of a deal. Just a bit of reminder of the rewards this person is in store for when they do straight business with you.

6. Do not volunteer to disarm. Again, diplomacy is one thing, but generally, you do not want to volunteer to disarm as an act of good faith unless you have been asked to. If you disarm after being asked to, you have extended a courtesy and respect and ought to have a little bit of diplomatic leverage because of it (if you are dealing with reasonable people).

7. If you feel like you are in danger, you probably are. There can be a good chance that your senses or your subconscious has figured something out that your conscious mind is putting back. If something does not feel right, consider cutting the deal off and leaving.

It is reasonable for the dealer to expect you to disarm before entering a neutral place or his space to do the deal, but it is not reasonable to let his people hold your weapons for you. You are at great risk if this is a condition of doing business.

In bigger money transactions, a representative of the seller disarms and goes to the representative of the buyer who is holding the money. The buyer (or a representative) disarms and goes to the seller (or a representative). The buyer and maybe an assistant will inspect the goods. The sellers representative and the buyers representative count the money. The buyer and the seller agree on the value of the goods the the buyer may leave with the goods when the seller is satisfied that his representative is safe with the money. Obviously, all of the intermediaries involved expect to be compensated for their efforts so in many cases, you can get better prices by cutting out the intermediaries. You also can reduce the number of people with knowledge of the transaction by cutting out intermediaries, so one valid tactic is to offer to pay the person for an introduction to their contact.

A variation of this is a deal where the buyer stashes the money in a hidden location lets say, the trunk of a car that is being guarded by a person hidden nearby. The buyer then goes to the seller and checks out the goods. The buyer then tells the seller that the money is nearby. Have the seller put the guns in a bag or box then follow the buyer to where the money is hidden. Give the seller the money then go your separate ways. The object of the game is to ensure that if they kill you, they don't get your money (the fourth rule).

If the deal is to be done in a building, realize that any radio or cell phone you have may not transmit out of the building. There are few good reasons to lose contact with your people and a prelude to a rip-off will be isolating you from anyone who can help you out of a jam. If you go to the deal alone, it might be smart to allude to the fact that others have an idea where you went and who you met rather than assuring them that you are alone and nobody knows where you are. It is a delicate balance, because some people will take it as a possible snitch situation.

Now the other thing is when both you and the other party in the deal already have an established trust and can relax a bit. You may want to do some smaller deals and build up to where you really want to be with these guys gradually. Chances are they would feel more comfortable that way also. The risky side of it is if the deals are routinely illegal, each one could lead to a bust or a rip-off, but then each one is usually a better step toward trust with the person.

If trust is established, either through personal experience or reputation, you may encounter some unusual but realistic conditions of certain transactions. Black market dealers often do not have the items in their possession, they just have "contacts" with those items available, and actually obtaining the item will require anything from a cash deposit to payment in full up front before even he can get the goods. Their reputation among people they deal with or know and the degree of trust they have is the actual value of a black market dealer's efforts, and he will likely guard this information by not willingly disclosing details about his sources and contacts. This is normal, and in many cases the black market dealer will simply lie about it to help you feel better by telling you what he hopes you want to hear. On this note, your contact is just the intermediary, but as long as the result is that you get a fair and safe deal, it does not matter. What can be a problem, and is often a sign that the person is untrustworthy is when they are equally vague or dishonest about the actual merchandise. That makes it a real exercise in people reading. E.G., you probably will need to tolerate some lies and evasiveness about the actual source and location of the items because the black market dealer considers that to be security related information. On the other hand, you are not obligated to tolerate lies or evasiveness about the specifics of the merchandise, its condition, or what actual items are included in the deal.


Methods of Payment and Exchange



For whatever reasons, many survivalists hail from the lower economic classes of society. They often perceive more hardship and instability than those who are more comfortably established do. Others belong to that quasi-class of people who have taken the downward spiral from the shrinking middle class. The young and newly independent also commonly lack the financial resources to casually make big-ticket purchases common to a survival arsenal. For these people, the financial side of getting a survival arsenal together is often the biggest challenge.

Several folks who study the various prophesies of the end times point to a society where people will not be allowed to buy or sell unless they have the "mark of the beast". While there are several theories about what the "mark" really will be (a computer chip, tattoo or both) we can easily see the dangers inherent in a society where certain people would be excluded from the formal economic system. As a bankruptcy or bad credit rating can destroy ones ability to buy a house or newer car, so can a felony conviction restrict one from getting a job in many place and lines of employment. Some people can enjoy all the benefits of anonymous, cheap and easy credit while others carry an invisible scar that mandates alternatives to the prevailing economic system.

Obviously, you can take a look at your finances and determine where you are at and how much you can spend on your arsenal. Compile a shopping list and be realistic. Set time oriented goals and see what they cost if it is possible to do it all at once, then by all means buy all the stuff at once and be done with it. Getting a survival arsenal together should not have to be a lifelong hobby.

The whole thing is a balancing act. Wait too long for the "best deal" and you stand a chance of losing out on getting certain items for any reasonable prices. If you get hasty and pay a lot of money on something you might feel the sting for a little while, but at least you have the gear.

There are several methods of payment and exchange available to the imaginative survivor. The chart below has links to several pages with short essays and links that can help you out in funding your purchases and keeping them secure.

Some basic rules:

If you are ever buying anything on a credit card, think of the price you are looking at and tack on 20%, which is about what the interest is when you take the average time a person takes to pay off the item. A great deal on some ammo at $80 a case at a gun show, bought with a credit card, may not be so great if the five cases you bought don't get paid off for two years, and in reality end up costing as much as just getting one case for storage and buying the practice ammo at the local shop when you could afford it. In that situation, you are not "beating" any "system" stocking up on ammo using credit, and then feeding interest to the banks instead of profit to a local gun shop.

Electronic items usually depreciate in value, whether they are for computers or for your survival gear. Get used to it, and determine when you think you want to take the plunge on the electronic items in relation to other gear. The tricky part is that the electronics still often represent the technological edge that separates the winners from the losers.

Guns tend to be a relatively good investment when limited to the basic gun and accessories, but custom work and lots of accessories are usually not recovered on resale.

The winners in a hurting economy are going to be the people who can adapt the quickest to alternative types of transactions. Be open to trade and barter whenever the cash flow is stuttering, but when you have the opportunities to do business with regular cash, apply your formulas to effort and value. Don't be like the fool who drives ten miles to the other side of town to save three cents a gallon on a half tank of gas.

Theft

Stealing weapons should be considered a next to last option in getting an arsenal together. Not only is it usually immoral, and illegal, it can also be very hazardous. Even after you have successfully stolen the guns, you have to take care that you are not caught by the authorities or the rightful owners of the guns. Military law and the laws of several states take the subject of firearm theft so seriously that deadly force is usually authorized in order to prevent a firearms theft. Some jurisdictions authorize any person to use deadly force in order to recover stolen property from a thief. In extreme situations where theft can be justified, your need must be greater than any risks involved and you should take steps to ensure that you will not be caught and punished for the theft. Obviously, those of a revolutionary type can easily justify stealing from the enemy. This is also more or less what forfeiture and confiscation laws are. Representatives of the state are authorized to steal from you whenever they think you are doing something illegal. In my book, turn about is fair play, if they steal from the individual citizens, then it is only fair that some citizens turn around and take something back. In situations where you are under some kind of hostile occupation, then theft of enemy supplies is entirely justifiable.

Usually, places where weapons are stored have a considerable amount of security. They are usually locked up tight and frequently have security systems that often include alarms, dogs, guards (even the owners) and sometimes cameras. The most frequent weak link in the security chain is evident when firearms are transported. It may be difficult to quickly open a cargo container and remove its contents, but there are many ways that you can arrange to do this at your relative leisure. For example, if you know that a certain truck is carrying the cargo that you want, it is probably as easy to steal the truck (or from the truck) as it would be any other truck. The difference is that you do not need to worry about keeping the truck if you steal the entire thing. You just need to get it to a hidden location where you can unload it quickly.

One trucker friend of mine was robbed in New York City bay a gang of thieves who opened the doors to his cargo trailer at a stoplight and proceeded to unload his truck as he drove toward his destination. They used an El Camino to carry their ill gotten gains. Every time he stopped at a light, they tossed more of his cargo to the person in the back of the El Camino. When he hit the next stoplight after realizing what was happening, he left the truck stopped and went to attack them with a baseball bat, but they were able to drive away before he could even get to the back of the truck. The thieves had found a way to unload some of his cargo without him being able to do much about it. No doubt they took the cartons home and gleefully unpacked the hundreds of valuable Taiwanese towels and bathroom rugs they had stolen. The issue was, however, that the truck was not locked any better than it was when he was carrying stereo equipment (which is what he frequently carried there) or more valuable cargo.

In these types of situations, intelligence gathering plays a very important role since it is very important to avoid wasting your efforts on stealing the wrong truck or breaking into the wrong shipping depot, ect.

A method of train looting was relayed to me a few years ago by a rather daring Chicano gangster and I think it is worthy of being told. Trains offer an interesting challenge for thieves and security personnel. If you can get somebody on to the train with some tools, they can get to the cargo and throw it overboard before the train can stop or security personnel can get to it. This is usually accomplished with the use of a 4X4 pickup and a couple of brave people (at best four but it can be done with two). Most train tracks have sections with a parallel road. What you can do is find a point in the train?s route where it will be traveling slow. The truck runs parallel to the train and the people in the bed of the truck work to get a boxcar open. Once they get it open, one person jumps and or climbs onto the train and tosses as much cargo as possible into the truck. He then jumps back into the truck when he is done. If there is a long parallel road, it may be possible to use two or three trucks, with the cargo tosser throwing or passing cargo to each truck as it pulls up, once the bed crew is finished, they pull away and the last truck picks up the person on the train. Communication and observation are critical in this type of operation. At best, there should be two people in the cab of the truck, a driver and a co-driver, and they should be constantly communicating about the road condition, obstacles and the status of the cargo transfer. If they cannot hear the people in back of the truck, then the cargo handler in the bed of the truck should have a hands-free radio to communicate with the co-driver. One of the biggest dangers (according to the gangster) is light poles and fixtures along the track. The driver must pay attention to the road and sometimes pull away from the train to avoid obstacles, this can be dangerous to the people in the bed of the truck and the person passing cargo over if it comes without warning. The driver cannot be so fixated on the cargo transfer as to not be paying attention to the road ahead. If something prevents the tossers from getting off of the train, they must be prepared to escape and evade on their own when the train slows down or stops at the train yard.

Salvage



This method of acquisition is most commonly available higher level scenarios. Salvage or abandoned weapons and equipment usually happens right after a battle of some sort. The parties in the conflict are probably fighting over something other than each other?s weapons and for one reason or another, you have access to the battleground but are not a direct participant in the battle. You usually need to be able to move quickly to secure your loot and do so without being noticed. An example would be a big shootout between rival gangs that happens to take place one night a few blocks away from where you live. You hear the shooting and go down the alleys to see what is happening. You see a group of dead and wounded gangsters around a burning car. The rest of their group is being pursued by rival gangsters and the police into another part of the neighborhood. You check the bodies and find that they are carrying an assortment of 9mm pistols. Now the trick is to get them away before you are noticed and before any other scavengers come around.

In wartime situation, salvage is going to be most common after a skirmish and is especially easy after one parties has performed a hit and run operation, like in this picture, Chechen Guerillas have hit a Russian patrol and withdrawn after taking some items that were useful to them, but they abandoned some weapons and ammunition, probably because the group that hit the convoy was not short on these supplies and was unwilling to stick around long enough to destroy them. Another time that is good for salvage is after a military unit has been attacked by aircraft. While it is possible for weapons and ammunition to be boobytrapped by troops under pursuit, it is most commonly not done.

Guns may also be found during and after natural disasters. This is commonly referred to as looting if you did not own the items before the disaster and it is likely that the owner(s) will return to recover their property. Looting is usually discouraged through martial law, meaning that if you are doing it, the authorities and the rightful owners of the property consider your hide to be free game. On the other hand, if the disaster is of a scale that it is unlikely that anybody will recover the items and you have an immediate need for them, then looting is generally allowed, but the authorities may not respect your right to recover weapons and or valuables. In situations where there is no coherent authority, or government resources are spread too thin, then it will probably not matter (although this is a rare case). It will probably be necessary to defend and /or conceal your salvage operation in either case. Salvage operations should be undertaken quickly when it is determined that they will be necessary for your survival. Although salvage operations must be done quickly, they must also be done methodically if you are going to make the most of them. Building and area salvage operations involve four stages that are outlined below.

1. Reconnaissance, evaluation; This important stage is where you check out the area for possible dangers and security threats to your salvage operation. Look for possible hostiles, hazardous conditions (like radiation, unstable buildings, chemical contaminants) and evidence of prior salvaging. Danger areas should be noted and pointed out to all members of the search teams. Evaluate the likelihood of finding important items and supplies and prioritize the areas to be searched more thoroughly. Try to estimate your time constraints when setting your detailed search priorities. Beware of boobytraps and other security systems that may still be operational and will threaten the security of the search teams.

2. Locate desirable items; This includes the initial search of likely places where you will find things and remembering and possibly marking the locations of them for later recovery. You may need to pick up very important and/ or portable items right away.

3. Recover and secure; After you think you have located everything, it will be necessary to recover and secure it. This can mean taking things from where you found them and hiding them so you can get them later or placing them in a guarded or protected place. This is more or less a "local cache". An example would be placing all of the ammo you find in the building in one intact closet and covering the door with debris. A member of your group may be assigned to guard a particular room where the searchers deposit the goods that they recover throughout the building. This way, the searchers will not be burdened during the search.

4. Consolidate, remove and utilize; Here, items are packed and moved to a safe area. They may need to be cleaned, decontaminated, repaired or otherwise serviced. Decontamination should take place outside the retreat and may require some sort of transitional consolidation site where decontamination waste material can be dumped without risking further contamination of water, food supplies or vulnerable personnel (children and sick people). In some situations, removal can be the most difficult stage because the activity will have to be done secretly. This is especially true if you think that you will need to continue recovery operations on an ongoing basis. You will be essentially smuggling the recovered material from the recovery site to the retreat or a cache. Utilization of recovered materials should be avoided until they have been inspected for hidden damage or contamination.

Certain tools and supplies need to be around for an effective salvage operation. These will include bolt cutters, saws, prybars of various sizes and maybe even cutting torch equipment. Some power tools and a small generator may also be useful. Think of a reciprocating saw, a handheld grinder and a chainsaw. Also keep in mind that items may need cleaning and decontamination, so cleaning and decontamination tools and supplies should be a priority also. More involved salvage operations will require a truck or barge for moving salvage material. If at all possible, make your salvage operation in a single trip. Repeated trips to a salvage point will likely make you a target.

Sunken, beached, or otherwise shipwrecked boats are also more or less free game if it is reasonable to believe that the owner cannot be found and/ or the above conditions exist. Nearly all seagoing boats have some kinds of firearms on board. They can also be a good source for preserved food, stored drinking water and other survival items. Sunken or waterlogged boats should be searched as soon as conditions permit, as firearms will be ruined within days of being submerged in salt water. Ammunition can last longer underwater and corrosion can be cleaned off. The ammo may not be as reliable, but most modern ammo is waterproofed at the factory to compensate for this. Even those guns that were ruined by water may be good for some spare parts and accessories. Stainless steel guns do fairly well in salt water environments and are favored by boaters, but internal springs can be ruined. Guns recovered from sunken boats need to be fully disassembled, inspected, thoroughly dried and cleaned with solvent before being put in service. The solvent is necessary to remove salt and mineral deposits that will accelerate rust when the guns are exposed to moist air or get wet again. It may even be necessary to soak the metal in soapy fresh water in order to loosen salt deposits (clean and oil afterwards).

Capture

Capture of weapons from armed persons is problematic in its own rite. The problem is that they will frequently use up much of their ammo and may even ruin the weapon while trying to prevent you from capturing anything. They also will almost never be carrying any more than a single combat load per person. This means that you may have to engage in several capture operations in order to accumulate just a basic arsenal?s worth of ammunition and guns for spare parts. You also face danger every time that you attempt to capture weapons from anybody. I once encountered a street thug who tried to rob me of a pistol I was carrying. He assumed that his relatively good streetfighting skills, the element of surprise, and his crack emboldened self confidence could carry it through, even though he was unarmed. The coroner never could precisely determine how many times I shot the hoodlum, only that he ended up dead.

Traditional guerrillas have relied heavily on captured weapons, but the crutch has always been outside sponsorship and/ or their ability to buy at least some weapons on the open market. The survival group, however may not be motivated by high ideals and whatnot, but may borrow from some principals of guerrilla warfare. On the other hand, survivalism is about being prepared ahead of time, not stop gap desperate last minute measures. If you were not prepared ahead of time, you did something wrong.

Capturing weapons from hostile persons or organizations is often very difficult. While many "guerrilla" organizations have depended on captured weapons, your likelihood of capturing weapons is often largely dependent on how well armed you are to begin with. Sure, with some good planning and smart tactics you may be able to capture a few heavy weapons from an enemy force, but this is mostly beyond the scope of what survivalism is about. On the other hand, recovering some weapons as booty from attackers may prove to be an extra source of weapons and equipment if it is done right. Essentially, you rob the robber. You may be able to carefully isolate and ambush some hostiles and take what they have. Thus, a military style ambush for the purpose of capturing weapons is essentially just a big violent robbery, and will be treated as such by the authorities in most cases. With regard to occupying or hostile government forces, this may not be a moral or ethical issue. You also may have some degree of assurance that they will not be around to retaliate against you in some way later on. Hostile military or paramilitary organizations will frequently just become more careful in the future and will take care to remove weapons and valuable supplies from the bodies of their comrades when they withdraw from a battle, even if they lose, you may not capture much gear of any value.

A well planned military style ambush against common outlaws can be devastating to the enemy as well as profitable, at least until they get wise as to how to avoid the ambush. This kind of activity alone could almost eliminate crime in areas where the outlaws have practically taken over. In survival scenarios where more people have made the rational decision to be violent, there may be no shortage of outlaws to capture weapons from, but they will also quickly find ways to cope with the danger. As a survivalist, you may have an interest in ensuring that they see the need to just stay away or take their chances at getting messed up and robbed.

Robbery



<under construction>



One "quick and dirty" method of raising cash that has been attributed to some survivalist and militia groups has been bank robbery. It had been a fairly popular fundraising method used in the 1970s and early 1980s pioneered in the modern form by offshoots of organizations like the Black Panthers and Weather Underground. By the late 1980s and early 1990s, a number of right wing groups got into the game. It was one crew which likely included OKC bomber Tim McVeigh that had been involved in bank robberies for fundraising for as many as two years.

The crew had been assembled by an otherwise capable leader who was most likely Peter Langan. As it was, the crew was formed on a pattern most commonly suggested to modern "hard core" militia groups. The profile usually will include: a paramilitary motivation and group structure, moral and ethical disassociation from general society, a willingness of core group members to take risks, and core members who posses the skills and physical ability to undertake demanding tasks. A robbery crew will usually need at least four people to be effective, while more than eight is a crowd. Langan's group usually ran four to six and was called the "Aryan Republican Army, apparently loosely based on the Irish Republican Army. The people were apparently hand-picked and competant. They seemed to embrace a number of right wing causes more than motivations of personal greed.

According to estimates published by the FBI and the ADL, the crew was competant enough to avoid capture for two years. Some members are apparently yet to be arrested. They were eventually tied into22 to 25 robberies over a two year period in 1994 and 1995, with an estimated take around $250,000. That gives us the opportunity to do some math.

Lets figure some two year average for the crew, which at any given time we will average at five people. Sometimes four, sometimes as many as eight, but reports say that it was usually around four per "job". If we average out the taken on a given robbery would then have been around $10,000. Sound like a lot of money in a hurry right? Now take that $10K and divide by the five guys on the average job - that's right at $2000 per man per month. Not exactly an outlaw's life of luxury considering the amount of travel, hotel rooms, safe houses, weapons, drop cars and payoff for money laundering that had to be covered out of that take. Make all of those deductions, and we discover that the big bad bank robber crew was probably not living any better than your grocerty store shelf-stockers. In fact, if the crew had simply opened a contracting business in a booming area and scammed licensing and tax requirements, they probably could have raised more money.

Some reasons for the unenviable lifestyle of professional robbers:

Banks hold very little cash these days, in fact, they rarely can even cash a $20,000 check without a few days notice. Banks these days are often just clearinghouses for checks and electronic transactions, with less than 10% of transactions being in cash.

Bank Robbery is both a federal and state crime, which means it gets more attention from law enforcement than other crimes.

Banks have sophisticated security systems that may not be able to prevent or stop a robbery, but are quite capable assisting later investigations.

Law enforcement and members of the public who might otherwise be sympathetic will almost always be hostile to the robbers.

[Micro]

Sorry for quadruple and lenghty posting.

Later on I tought that it could be a better idea to upload the text.

Rapidshit link to the text (http://rapidshare.com/files/124309388/blackmarket_gunbuy_guide.txt)

[Edit]
And on the main subject.
I have this problem too as firearms need a license around here.
My solution is to make my own. As this not a pressing maner I don't waste much of my time on it.
A reporter arund here spent a night on a trainstation, he seid that he was offered a gun buy only after two hours of waiting.
So apparently you just need to know where to look.

[icharianchem]

could you pleez edit the above four posts so we dont havce to scroll all the way through it?

[hamster]

How can SWIM get introduced to arms dealers, what activities would help
SWIM if SWIM becomes a drug dealer will i eventually get introduced.. what other ways.

if SWIY is in the united states I may suggest robbing police cars

@micro thank you very much for the writeup

[crazy white guy]

Robbing police cars is only a good thing to do if you are in a VERY low security area like a small town with less than 50,000 people. In my city, cops will shoot/taser you if you look at them funny. It doesn't help to be polish either.

[RoundElephant]

Stealing a cops gun is so hard. The shotty's are locked into the squad cars, and the cops keep their pistols on them. It is an impossibly difficult feet.

[hamster]

It doesn't help to be polish either.
familiar feeling



Stealing a cops gun is so hard. The shotty's are locked into the squad cars, and the cops keep their pistols on them. It is an impossibly difficult feet.

The shotgun is in the inside of the car along with a ARMALITE M4, on the rack with the center console. If not then in trunk, the car will have a trunk release button, police lock their cars quite rare these days, and those that do, I am positive a slim jim will open an older (2k and older) crown vic or impala car.
The risk is high but so are the profits and allmost no skill is needed.

[Th0r]

The shotgun is in the inside of the car along with a ARMALITE M4

That depends what Police Force you are targeting.

[RoundElephant]

I think they would go through almost anything to get that gun back, it would be such a disgrace for the police squad's own gun to be used in a crime.

[crazy white guy]

Theres never such luck in My area. Even small town cops have light armor on their vehicles and rarely leave their cars long enough to smash and grab it. They only have large rifles(other than shotguns) when they are on a patrol in a slightly worse part of town. They have upped security after a gun was stolen a while back. What makes it worse is that they put in light bulletproof glass thats nearly impossible to get through without a gun or pick. Ninja rocks are useless on polycarbonate.

[nobody2000]

Easy...

If you're over 18, just order one online. Most people asking this question want automatic weapons...i.e AK-47 or something with a similar portability and firepower.

Purchase an AK online from any legit seller. They will have them , but they are unable to be fired as an automatic, only semiautomatic.

There is a very easy way (that funny enough, i can't recall it right now) to half-disassemble the firing assembly, and holding back this piece that's supposed to lock back with a screwdriver, you can make it shoot automatically. This is a pain in the ass, even when you can lodge the screwdriver in there.

However, there are some online dealers that sell this $30 metal plate with some holes punched out of it. It's small. You replace the locking plate in the AK with this one, and bingo....you now have a TRUE automatic AK.

(sorry I don't know much gun terminology. I know muzzle, barrel, stock, trigger, rounds, etc...but nothing about the inside...I can certainly do these mods though, as I have seen pics. It's not hard...)

The plate cannot be purchased by a dealer that sells ANY firearms. It's a nice loophole. However, it's STILL illegal to own one of these bad boys.

This process can be repeated for semi-auto versions of similar guns.

[crazy white guy]

Yeah on This Site (http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/guncollecter/kits.html) automatic weapon parts kits are available. Most are complete minus receiver.

Most receivers on that page can be easily stamped as the thompson, UZI, krinkov, AMD-65

Others can be machined out of a custom ordered tube with little effort.

You can order dozens of these if you feel like outfitting a small army. Im sure that they offer bulk discounts. Other retailers i have seen offer cheaper rates but i cant find the links.

[Pimpin4Life30]

Im sure you have to give them a license and a bunch of other bullshit.

[crazy white guy]

It doesn't work that way. They type the name into a database and it automatically checks for authenticity. When my uncle bought his AR in a gun shop they called the CFO and got him to run the license number. It all checked out but he wasn't allowed to leave until the license was cleared. If you have access to a database of foreign licenses you can get a fake ID made up with all of the info of your legit licensee. It wouldn't work with a local license. In Canada there are only a few thousand licenses for automatic fire arms. I'm sure that the CFO has talked to each one personally or over the phone.

[ZionBlack]

No you must have misunderstood, this is all very pertinent information if your purchasing one firearm, but swims aim is to purchase a good 15-20

[Pimpin4Life30]

Rob a few middle class houses.

[crazy white guy]

That would work, but it would take forever. Most people in my area either lock up their guns to the point that they are impossible to get at or they keep them on their person at all times. Its a 1 in 1000 chance of getting a gun during a random b&e.

[Th0r]

Rob a few middle class houses.

That would only work in America. A friend of mine told me in Canuckistan it's a similar situation with firearms there as it is here in the UK. It's the population in the rural areas who own firearms.

Whether this is entirely true or not I don't know.

If you want to know about firearm security in America I can only direct you to TFL, or The Firing Line a forum dedicated to legal, responsible ownership of firearms...

...And I'm Th0r there for your information.

[Pimpin4Life30]

That would work, but it would take forever. Most people in my area either lock up their guns to the point that they are impossible to get at or they keep them on their person at all times. Its a 1 in 1000 chance of getting a gun during a random b&e.

My friend robed a house and got about 4 9mms and a shotgun.They were on top of a gun case and the shotgun was in the guncase except there was no glass in the cabinenet.

[Th0r]

My friend robed a house and got about 4 9mms and a shotgun.They were on top of a gun case and the shotgun was in the guncase except there was no glass in the cabinenet.

Well there are some ignorant, negligent and irresponsible firearms owners across the board. I don't think you can avoid that whatever the regulations on firearms safes are.

If I had pistols lying around my house I would be very concerned about two things.

A kid picking it up and causing the child itself, another person or property damage and the possibility of a Burglar using it against me...

Alas, Pistols are Banned here.

[icharianchem]

if you cant find gun in the US on the East Coast you arent looking. I find these things at fucking yard sales

[Pimpin4Life30]

All i have to say is he was one lucky son of a bitch.

[icharianchem]

Right now i live in Killadelphia, if I want a gun (and im not to picky) its just a matter of knowing a person or two. Alternately I can go out into the sticks and buy a shotgun off farmer Bob for 250 USD

[ZionBlack]

Again, its not ONE gun SWIM is looking for, its about 15 or 20.

[Th0r]

Again, its not ONE gun SWIM is looking for, its about 15 or 20.

Thought about what you'll do after you have stolen the Guns, in terms of storage?

[crazy white guy]

Theres 10 rifle safes in cost-co for 150$. That seems perfect. 10 rifles and i'd say 5 pistols in box.

[Th0r]

The ones in shops like 'Cost Co' and 'Wal Mart' are crap and in some instances have occured where Wal Marts Gun safes could be opened by keys in a Lock set in another Department.

A ten rifle safe for $150...

All I can say is you'd have to pay $500 to get a good ten rifle safe, plus I was thinking more about Caching the weapons like the IRA did in 'The Troubles' and then coming to collect the weapon and once used Cache it again...

http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?s=7978070

That's one of the many stories about Wal Mart Gun Safes...

[icharianchem]

i think you may have to combine a couple of the aformentioned techniques to aquire 10-15 guns. Somehow i doubt anyone who knows how to get 10-15 guns illegally from one source will spill on it. Especially on teh interwebz.

[ZionBlack]

as for storage, Swims got a pond in his backyard with a floating dock in the center all he needs is a good sized waterproof box

[odin_dax]

as for storage, Swims got a pond in his backyard with a floating dock in the center all he needs is a good sized waterproof box

In planning such things, you really have to think about ordinary people vs LE. For starters, ordinary people won't really find guns well hidden in your own home, even thieves. LE, on the other hand, will search and search if they know you have something. They'll search the pond, trust me.

So, if you're trying to hide things from LE, you have to pick a "random" spot. Otherwise, what's the point of risking your investment to water damage?

You'd do a lot better damming water, digging a hole, burying the guns or whatever, then burying it, and finally removing the dams so water will cover it. No way will anyone find that.

[crazy white guy]

I didnt want to start a new thread for such a small post so here it is:

Im in europe and me and my dad want to buy a surplus rifle of some sort. We would like to avoid automatics but they will be happily purchased if one is found with a reasonable price. My dad is willing to do the paperwork but I would rather just ship all of the legal parts into canada while leaving the receiver and bolt in poland. The receiver can be made by my dad's friend if its a kalashnikov or similar so thats no problem and finding a semi auto capable bolt isnt very hard is my area seeing as i can get it legally :tongue1: and if worse comes to worse i can have a friend bring one over from washington.
my question is : where should I go to get my rifle?

Normally people suggest out-of-the-way gun stores that would have a bargain bin type section. But i need to know which country would be best to find a place like this. I'd rather not go to russia but its possible. Me and my dad are leaving in two days so help asap.

[ZionBlack]

great idea CWG, these guns will be kept in the hiding place for up to twenty years is there any kind of preparing swim needs to do to keep them in working condition?

[RoundElephant]

great idea CWG, these guns will be kept in the hiding place for up to twenty years is there any kind of preparing swim needs to do to keep them in working condition?

CWG wouldn't most men in second world countries be able to tell you where to get an AK.

[Th0r]

great idea CWG, these guns will be kept in the hiding place for up to twenty years is there any kind of preparing swim needs to do to keep them in working condition?

Numerous Preparations, Zion.

The NBK PDF of Explosives and Poisons has a large chapter on Caching Weapons and Preparations of which they are quite a few.

That's if you decide to bury them of course, which is the route I would go down.

Don't bury the Weapons in a Prospective Development Site. Such as if your Rents oir Landlord are planning to sell the Property you live in, don't bury the Weapons there. Same goes that you don't bury the Weapons in Woodland where developments could take place.