Acetone Peroxide

[kbk]

Sweet I have the first post in this section :). Acetone peroxide is probably the simplest explosive to make because the materials for it are readily available. AP is not a very safe explosive however, it is sensitive to shock, heat, and spark, it's a primary HE, chemical formula C9H18O6. I have made my own synth for AP that makes about 15g, I'll post that here,

Acetone Peroxide is a Primary High Explosive. It is sensitive to shock, heat, light, friction, and most other things an explosive can be sensitive to. This isn't much of a problem if you handle it with care and when you're making it you add the HCl in slowly, drop wise. If this is done, Acetone Peroxide is a great place to start in HE's.

Materials:
Chemicals- 500mL of 3% H2O2 (1), 300mL of 100% Acetone (2), and 250mL of 20-30% HCl (3).
Equipment- large glass container (jar 1L+), a beaker (500mL+), and some Coffee filters/filter paper.

Procedure:
First take your beaker and fill it with 500 mL of H2O2, dump this into your jar.
Next measure 300 mL of Acetone into the beaker, pour this into the jar.
Now measure the 250 mL of HCl and pour this into the jar drop-wise, very slowly, if the HCl is added too quickly you will end up with dicyclo AP which is very sensitive.
Once this is done place your jar into a refrigerator and leave it there for at least 1 week.
After about a week the jar will have tiny crystals floating on the bottom. These crystals are the AP.
Now it is time to filter, get another jar and cover the opening of it with the filter paper. now pour the liquid into the filter, keep adding until all the liquid is gone and you cant see the crystals in the other jar any more.
After you filter you will need to let the AP dry for awhile, set it in a cool, dark, dry place, do not put it in the oven unless you dont want the oven anymore!
Once it is dry you are ready to pack it into your casing, pack it in tightly but be sure not to pound it in, this could cause it to go off right in your hand. This recipe makes about 15 grams. (I reccomend starting with 5g or under!)

(1) H2O2 can be purchased at any store, H2O2 is also known as hydrogen peroxide, the stuff in the brown bottle that you put on cuts to disinfect them.
(2) Acetone can be purchased at lowes or another hardware store as a paint remover, or as nail varnish remover but the
acetone in nail varnish remover is diluted.
(3) HCl (hydrocloric acid) for this you can use a drain opener, like draino, I recommend "the works" it seems to be the only one with any HCl in it that i can find at my local store.

It has everything you need, where to get the chems, and all the precautions etc. Enjoy.

[gbu-36]

How does the use of Nail Polish Remover and the impurities within effect yield and purity ? Id be kinda worried about it myself.

Also from other experiances the place Ive found is the best to get Acetone is from a specialty paint store, as acetone is hydroscopic and the constant sales of acetone in such stores means fresher stuff.

Another quick question, is it possible to increase yield by using a higher concetration of Hydrogen Peroxide such as the stuff you find in beauty supply stores ?

Thanks for the info in advance =)

[RELOAD]

I can't be arsed to read the whole post but yes, it is easy to get hold of.

A friend of mine who happens to live in the sticks has five dumpy bags full of it.

But you still have the labour on top....

[kbk]

Acetone in nail polish remover is a little less pure than the stuff at paint stores, and it does affect yield a little but not too much. And the higher conc. H2O2 you have the better the yield, and reaction speed, also using H2SO4 instead of HCl helps.

[RELOAD]

So what is the stuff I see in the dumpy bags at mates farm...

"CAUTION. ASSISTS FIRE. OXIDISING AGENT"

They're little white pellets.... Why don't you just use that instead of this nail varnish remover you talk about, I've seen that, it's just flammable and it's liquid.... Explain?!?!

EDIT: I'm an idiot, it appears from my picture it's actually ammonium nitrate that I am talking about. Appologies.

[kbk]

Yeah I was going to say, it's gotta be either AN or KNO3. Acetone is a liquid used for removing paints and etc.

[THErAPIST]

Fingernail polish remover isn't a great thing to use. Acetone Peroxide is already more unstable that Nitroglycerin to begin with so why would you use impure things? Impure precursors lead to impure products which leads to a shortened life when it comes to energetic materials. Acetone peroxide as far as i know is NOT too sensative too light, but storing it long enough to see if light affects it to begin with is just a dumb move.

I've used both H2SO4 and HCL and I've always gotten better yields with HCL. You;'ll get higher yields if you keep the reaction slightly warm as compared to keeping it in the freexer or the refriggerator, but the stability is a bit lower...

[kbk]

I always put mine in the fridge for a week...How long do you usually let yours sit out for?

[THErAPIST]

When I did make it, I always used a warm reaction. The yields were better, at the cost of having a slightly less stable product that was ever so slightly less brisant... I never stored the stuff though and i never made HUGE batches because I was doing a warm reaction.

Never took me longer than about 2 or 3 hours to make it, wash it multiple times, and then dry it enough to press into a cap (with a pressing machine!!)

I wouldnt even think about making AP anymore though. It's much more worth while to make DDNP than AP to me. Cost of precursors is a little higher, and it's more time consuming, but the end product is much more powerful, much more stable, and just in general much more interesting.

That stated, I haven't made anything other than fireworks for over a year and a half now

[kbk]

O, I love AP, and exposives in general, I would like to make a career out of it someday. I never store AP either, it decomposes pretty quickly, not as fast as HMTD though. DDNP is something I've always wanted to try but i cant get the precursors around here.

[THErAPIST]

DPPP is extremely hard to make even if you DO have the precursors. The synth I used to use had DPPP as an impurity in the final product which I liked. I did a side by side test with 1 gram of AP and 1 gram of AP with DPPP impurity in it. They were both pressed to the same density. the DPPP impurity one made a larger dent in a lead plate.

It's not worth your time really. Takes a good bit of time and I also did it with a warm reaction which isn't a great thing.

[kbk]

I would still like to try it. I want to try as many things as I can. I'm going to be starting nitrates as soon as I can, once my parents see it isn't as dangerous as it sounds.

[THErAPIST]

It IS as dangerous as it sounds.. Everything and anything you do that has anything to do with energetic materials, or the chemistry behind them requires more respect than most people know. by all means, experiment. This is the way we learn, just dont take any dumb risks. taking dumb risks are what get you hurt. that and being SCARED of what yorue doing. can't be scared, just very respecting

i'll post my synth for DPPP contaminated AP sometime in the next couple days if i can find it around here.. it's been over 2 years since ive made it..

[kbk]

I do know that it is dangerous, but my parents think that it is like insanely dangerous, like just making the nitric will destroy me somehow. I know my limits and I know what I am doing, I will take every precaution there is not to get myself injured or killed. I don't do this just to do it, I do it because I want to learn it and know it and let my skills grow. I deffinetly have respect for what I do, if I didn't I would prolly be dead already!

[DREX]

I have made AP with nail varnish remover and it does work fine increased washing will remove any impurity but still if can get it pure it would be better that way.
I belive that AP should be treated with extream respect but being extreamly scared of it will probelly be as dangerous as being careless.

[THErAPIST]

as i already stated, AP is more unstable than nitroglycerin... you really want it to be any LESS stable by using fingernail polish remover?

[kbk]

The sensitivity of NG is really not as bad as hollywood would have you believe. Or so I hear, I have yet to make it...Soon enough though.

[THErAPIST]

its not as unstable as people would think, but it's still nothing near stable...

A drop from a height of 30 inches or more can detonate a drop of NG. That's not always the case (it usually takes like 45 to 55 inches), but it's a base to go off of just to show the sensativity. 30 inches is just over 2 feet remember

[S25]

I also used Nail varnish remover when i was making AP and i believe there is a better chance of somthing going wrong than if you dont wash it or if you dont keep the temp down when its reacting personaly i believe that it is a extremly dangerous explosive and that it should be respected.On another note i have a vid of AP being test for sensitivity i shall try and upload it when i can and you can all have a gawk it was done by a guy called Angry Jack who was a very talented pyro :wink:

[THErAPIST]

was? you mean to tell me that he's not around anymore or something?

note: IMO, respect for explosives also means using the purest precursors possible so that one obtains the purest final product... fingernail polish remover is just as expensive if not more so than acetone... acetone which is pure... Why tempt things by being lazy and using fingernail polish remover, with all of its fragrances and skin softeners and such? All it takes is to be a little more active and go to lowes hardware and pick up a gallon of acetone for $8

[kbk]

Angry Jack isn't around anymore, his posts at bombshock were the ones that got me really interested in this stuff too, its a shame hes gone. Anyway, THEraPIST, how was your DPPP contaminated AP...I think I'll just make a thread for it..

[S25]

If thats the case then why risk using dyclo as you stated earlier in youre post.AJ is sadly gone :(

Offtopic:
I love youre site.Nice design!

[THErAPIST]

My site?

There is little difference between the stability of dimmeric and trimmeric AP, so at the cost of a slightly less stable product I always got higher yields. It's nasty stuff anyway and after I learned how to make better primaries, I never used it again.

[Douchermann]

KBK, about your first post, you said simplest explosive you can make, i can argue with that if you are talking about explosives in general or just HE's
im just messin with you man, this is just my first post and i think im gonna change my signature to the one at a0tu and the new forum i just joined which i can't remember....oh yeah, totse.

[Douchermann]

Actually, now that i have read through this sections i have some arguments to strike up, first of all AP isn't unstable at all, i've droped a big batch (on purpose if i might add) from about 4 ft and no det, the only problem was now i had this big thing of ap on the ground, but nothing a fuse couldn't get rid of :twisted:
Nitroglycerin is next to impossible to detonate in ammounts smaller than 2 grams and to back this up, i will wack a drop with a hammer and video tape it (once i make it)
read copae on explosives, i think AP is theoretically around the sensitivity of MF, but slightly more stable (i have copae at www.a0tu.com/Douch in pdf format)

[DREX]

From the bac,k of my bottol of nail varnish remover acetone aqua glycerine since glycerine is minicible in water it will not effect the senssitivity of my washed AP and to wander down to lowes and pick up some acetone would take a 8 hour plane trip and no acetone is not stocked by hardware stores here.

[kbk]

I just bought a gallon today, I was going to get some MEK but I didn't have the money...

[THErAPIST]

acetone isn't stocked by hardware stores there?! 8 hour plane trip?! do you live in the middle of the sahara?!

YOU can say what you want about AP. I'm the one who's almost lost his hand by looking wrong at a .5g pile of shit that i had made in a refrigerator.. either your stuff was still wet or it was cut well. it'll still det if it's damp and theres a big enough pile that has a flame introduced to it.

I've both made NG, and seen scientific test videos of it's sensativity. i know about that too. NG dissolved in acetone is less sensative. Less than 2g of NG is impossible to detonate? you drop 2 mL (~2g) of NG from a height of 5 feet and see what it does.. Drop half that much from that high and see what it does.

Not saying that you don't know what yorue talking about, but I have been there and done that, and followed to the letter the procedures in my chem books on how it's purified. Mad care to throw in your input on this one? I Know you're not into this sort of thing anymore and neither am i, but a second testamonial here would be nice just to get rid of any missinformation.

It is nice to have some people posting in this section though. it was DEAD on the last rorta. And lets not forget that i'm always up for being proven wrong if someone can do this.

[kbk]

All my experiences with AP have been good, not that accidents don't happen or that AP isn't as sensitive as they say. But I haven't had a bad experience with it yet...I don't know anyone who has either.

[Douchermann]

Im always testing the limits of AP and so far no bad experiences, oh and therapis, i am only following what other people have told me, sorry if the information is horrible wrong.

[DREX]

The ansaw is england 8 hours from lowes and none of the hardware stores stock acetone fracce ould be the nearist place which does stock it.
And NG's demsity is 1.59g/ml meaning two ml is more like 3g.

[THErAPIST]

your situation sucks. im sorry :(

and, i stand corrected! heh

[Douchermann]

Yeah, people in basically all of europe have it alot harder than us americans have it, i feel bad for them. The worst part is that some of us think we have it bad because its hard to get a hold of a certain chemical.

[evilwalnut]

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[kbk]

Just so you know there is another thread about ANxx comps (APAN etc) and I have found that 90:10 ANAP (90 AN 10 AP) works best but you need a blasting cap.

[evilwalnut]

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[THErAPIST]

In response to Therapist using a warmer reaction: This can be a bad idea if you dont know what you are doing, because high temps can lead to the making of TATP an unstable, whorish cousin of AP...also, have you ever gotten a NG headache from making it? Golly those feel like some warrior goddess fighting around inside my skull.


Oh Believe me, I Know how bad things can go with a warm reaction. It took me a long time of screwing around with it before I knew how to do it right, and even then it was still hazardous. The worst thing about it is the always pesky runaway reaction in which hot bubbling acid, acetone, and concentrated peroxide splashes all over the place and sprays the most suffocating and eye burning fumes the earth has ever seen. it's like high level pepper foam... the gift that keeps on giving. (even when youw ash the shit off) Wanna be blind for a few hours? let a warm reaction runaway with you near it. I believe our water bill was higher that month because of the amount of water that I had constantly running on my eyes for a few hours.

BTW, i figured maybe someone would be interested. Here is something I made a long time ago illustrating the pro's and cons with both AP and HMTD since they are the most common primaries among Dreamers. http://i-was-bored.8m.com/HMTDvsAP.HTML

[evilwalnut]

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[THErAPIST]

OK.. Seriously now... While they may not be anything near the best, what's one thing that is more common? Every site that exists on the internet seems to have an AP synth. They're not as common when youre dealing with the more experienced people, but the majority of people who screw around with HE's either have used it, or continue to use it because it's cheaper to produce than other better primaries and still effective. Wouldn't you agree?

What would you personally use? If I had a choice in the matter I'd stay away from peroxides and go with an azide, a fulminate, or another salt that would be a hell of a lot more stable while still being functional..

Maybe I should have said "pro's and con's because a large amount of perople still use them either as primaries, or as sensatizers in AN mixtures and the like". Anywho, it's old, it's there, and it's something to look at.

[evilwalnut]

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[THErAPIST]

DDNP or mercury fu;lminate all the way. DDNP being what I prefer. It's a pain in the ass to make, but it's the best ive ever found.

[evilwalnut]

Eh, the juice isnt worth the squeeze with DDNP. If I wanted to go out of my way to make a primer I would make Lead Styphnate.

[kbk]

If I had more say in the matter (more funds, more chems, easily available chems) I would probably go with lead picrate or DDNP, I have heard some pretty good things about DDNP. But until I have the money and all that I have to stick with AP and usually an ANAP (or now I guess I could use TNP although it would be rediculous to prepare that just for use as a booster) as a booster.

[evilwalnut]

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[Thor]

I used to play around with random explosives really stupidly when I was a lot younger. Myself and friends all have nearly lost fingers from the moronic processes that we went through when we were younger. Since then I have gained much more respect for things I deal with. However, I stole away from the world of explosives for quite some time and can honestly consider myself a "n00b" when it comes to this area yet again. Would it be wise for me to start off with this AP mixture as a first go at a HE?
I realize how important the safety precautions are now and will most certainly not be fucking around like an idiot. I was also wondering, if I should choose to go through the process of creating this if I could add one or two of the more experienced pyro/chemists that have been posting on this topic to MSN so that I can have some real time talking about what I am doing. Just in case I need to do some troubleshooting, I don't want to try and guess at it and blow up my backyard :blindfold

Anyways, I really hope I can get myself back into explosives and such, I have always found them very fascinating, any input I can get would be awesome.
Thanks

[THErAPIST]

you reqally should try to get into fireworks instead. the penalties for making fireworks are much less than the penalties of high explosives, theyre more fun to watch, they actually take a bit of patience and skill, and you can still make some ungodly loud shit.

but as far as HE's go, AP is a good place to start. if you make the AP, test the flame sensativity of it by lighting a SMALL pile, the size of a pencil eraser or smaller with a long match. test the impact sensativity by smacking a pile that's about 1/3rd the size of a pencil eraser with a hammer. ear plugs are good

omce you've screwed around with it a bit to familiarize yourself with the sensativity and the dangers, you're ready to move on to other basic HE's

[Thor]

I find it is really hard to get the right materials for most fireworks and any other explosives for that matter, where I am from that is. I don't know of any chemical stores or anything like that where I can get half of the stuff required to make anything worth making. The ingredients for AP are easy to obtain, and from the sounds of it, it has quite a kick to it which I like.

[THErAPIST]

na, AP is actually on the weaker end of the spectrum, as well as being more unstable than nitroglycerin. it's dirt cheap and easy to make though.

Ebay is your friend when it comes to getting chemicals. just dont order lots at a time

[lacrima97]

34ml of 27% H2O2
22ml of Acetone

These ratios will give a stiochiometrilly perfect reaction leading to a literal clump of acetone peroxide formed.

[THErAPIST]

yes but at what temperature and how long will the reaction take? also what kind of acid should be used, and at what concentration should the acid be for those ratios?

[evilwalnut]

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[lacrima97]

5drops of HCl Have been used in that reaction with those measurements, and 20ml has been used. Your catalyst amount doesn't matter. If you want a fast reaction, go with alot of catalyst, a slow reaction without wasting alot of HCl, then don't but very much catalyst in.

The temperature has been maintained within -10 to 15dc. This reaction doesn't require alot of accuracy as far as temp and catalysts go, thats why they weren't listed. Just keep it cold.

[THErAPIST]

good enough. I was just expecting temperatures and catalyst amounts and such to be given.

[KjeXz]

How do you increase the stability of AP? And what is DDNP?

[kbk]

I can't think of a way to increase the stability without adding AN or something similar to it. That would probably work the best.

[THErAPIST]

DDNP is a primary explosive that's made with picric acid, lye and a few other goodies. It's more stable than a lot of the other primaries out thre, it has much better brisance, and the VOD is a good bit higher than most other primaries. it's just somewhat expensive and it's a pain to make.

AP is just plain and simple sensative. no real good way to make it less sensative unless you cut it with something that's about as hard to detonate as dirt... AN for example.

[AionSan]

You can make a safe plastic with AP and dissolved ping pong balls in acetone (Nitrocellulose).

It's like a brick of C4 except it dets when in contact with flame :)

[kbk]

I've heard of this before, AP putty or whatever. Never actually done it though. How would it work if you made the NC yourself instead of using pingpon balls?

[AionSan]

It would be loads more unstable, because ping pong balls are composed of nitrocellulose & a neutralizing agent for the NC called "camphor".

Without it the brisance will be increased but the stability will be even worse than ap, considering you have to dead press on the plastic you get to mold it.

Trust me, ap doesn't like to be pressed on live (not neutralized) NC and vice versa :tongue:

Edit: Not even adding that a regular nc synth wouldn't produce anything near a "plastic slurry" kind of compound :)

[THErAPIST]

deadpress on the plastic? huh? what?
the AP is added to a thick nc laquer, and the whole mess is put into a form to dry. no pressing needed... atleast that's how it always worked for me and how ive known it to be made.

[madscientist]

AP isn't safe, period.

[THErAPIST]

agreed

[W4RGASM]

I always put mine in the fridge for a week...How long do you usually let yours sit out for?

bad idea - Hydrous AP is far more unstable then dessicated.

Another quick question, is it possible to increase yield by using a higher concetration of Hydrogen Peroxide such as the stuff you find in beauty supply stores ?

Slightly higher yeild, much faster rxn and different isomers.








As for warm rxns... Avoid at all costs. As well as sheer danger from the rxn itself, you get fucked up isomers and a product that's full of water and tends towards monomer.

[Chemy]

Is 30% sulphur acid enough to make Ap?

[death11284]

[QUOTE=W4RGASM;11430]bad idea - Hydrous AP is far more unstable then dessicated./QUOTE]



I've generally worked with HMTD for a primary, however I'm pretty sure that statement is false. Wet AP actually takes a bit to detonate, however bone-dry AP is..well..the mother of satan.

I'll look later if you want specific quotes..but yeah..a couple of times personal experience as well..

[johnkimble]

I must say that using 30% hydrogen peroxide gave me a jar full of thick ap :eek5: I had made way to much and ended up burning off about half of it little bits at a time.
To get the acid out of the ap I usually use a bi carb soda solution to neutralise the ap seems to work well

[darkangel]

i ve been making ap in extremely large batches now for going on 3 years now(200g+), for the 4th of July now, it has always been made less than a week before use but im wondering. .
how long is it good for before it is unusable/unstable ?

[death11284]

Well if you were talking about cap size batches (4-5g max) then I would say you can essentially store it indefinitely as long as it's sealed well. In 200 gram batches the weight of the other AP pressing down upon it is enough to make it spontaneously detonate. It would all depend on luck but I would say you have been very lucky it's lasted a week. IF one were to do what you are doing I would store it in 10g batches that are in an airtight bag or vacuum-canister. Store them far enough apart to prevent a chain of explosions if they detonate.

Broken up into those amounts it's somewhat sane to store up to a month. Keep it a little bit moistened (READ moistened NOT soaked)

I hate to get all preachy and say everything everyone else has said, but don't make AP in those batch sizes. Ever. Period.
I have been playing with explosives for going on 7 years now, and I'm afraid to handle a quarter of that much AP.

Look at my thread on Erythritol Tetranitrate. You can make a pound of that stuff if you want, for a slightly more expensive price, and store it indefinitely. Not to mention for the loudness factor, about a 50g batch of ETN would produce the same volume as your 200g of AP..

A 3-4 gram AP cap will easily set off ETN, and as long as it's stored seperate from the ETN until det-time both of them are pretty safe.

[darkangel]

thanks, and no i dont store it all in container that would be suicide,
it is stored in 20 gram bottles ,at -10c.
also thanks for bringing up the other explosive ,i'll have to look into it

[death11284]

Ah I see. Just a thought but the -10 degrees C doesn't really help ya much..the fear of spontaneous DDT is due to friction and impact as opposed to heat. At least in normal conditions...

If you need any help as far as sources, just PM me and I'll help you out.

[-=HeX=-]

Ok guys... Time for some cold, harsh truths about Hexamethyl Hexanone.

First up, DPPP is a MYTH. The patent is BS. It has been tested by experienced organic chemists and it CANNOT ever work. The only people to adamantly state it did were liars - they were getting DiAcetone DiPeroxide, the Dimeric form.

A year ago I was playing around wirh AP a lot, setting off 300 gram charges, making % gram caps, and crackers. Then one day 20 grams went off near my hand and fairly fucked it up, and my experimenting was put on hold for a while. I now have some facts for you all:

*APAN mixes are NO MORE stable than AP alone. They also like to spontaneously go off on occasion.

*AP putty is EXTREMELY dangerous and is prone to going off at the slightest provocation, AP plastique IS suicide.

*AP is NOT a good primary explosive, it is outperformed by HMTD EASILY.

*AP never is pure Trimer - it always has some dimer and monomer - I sent in a specimen prepared using lab grade chemicals, carefully calculated amounts, a Dry Ice and Acetone bath for the greatest cooling, HCl as the acid... And it was about 20% Dimer. Now consider YOUR reaction, it is possibly 50% Dimer.

*Dimer is less powerful and can fail to make the DDT.

*Nitroglycerin is in fact safer AND just as easy to make as AP

Making any batch over 5 grams is suicide. What happens when some random spark hits your 300 gram super pile? Or one cracker in a bag detonates, initiating the others?

In short, you are better off making Double Salts or trying Azides or Fulminates. I personally use the Azo Clathrates and such.

I will post my book on TATP soon.

[death11284]

Yes DPPP is a myth, but neither of us mentioned it.

APAN mixes ARE more stable than straight AP...one of the factors in spontaneity is surface area...not only does APAN have less surface area of AP, but it also has surface area that is absolutely useless. This is going to lead to a significantly less sensitive product. Still sensitive but not AS sensitive. Especially if the mixes are kept separately, if it's a booster charge at standard ratio then there would only be 10g AP.

As far as HMTD outperforming AP in every way, I don't know what you're talking about. HMTD in smaller quantities is prone to not quite reaching DDT. Further, the VOD is ~4000m/s versus 5000m/s (HMTD : AP). Also, in a lot of countries getting hexamine (methanamine) can be difficult.
HMTD also does not store well, at all. You cannot store it with metals or it becomes incredibly sensitive.

Another huge advantage AP has is that forms a very, VERY good plastique with polyisobutylene. HMTD becomes lumpy and coarse, which as we all know is bad for the whole sensitivity issue. Further the negative oxygen balance means you can significantly boost performance by adding AN to the plastique.

NG is NOT safer by any stretch of the imagination to create. Have you ever heard of a runaway peroxidation? No you haven't, but runaway nitrations are fairly common in nigger-rigged setup. This will usually result in an explosion.
Also, as far as the materials go, you need sulfuric acid (95-100%!), and a nitrate salt (which is AWFUL for safety, for a somewhat safe reaction you need nitric at 95-100%!!)
Oh and what's that other grave danger? Lemme think, oh yeah NOx, an extremely toxic gas...

To be honest I've never heard of an azo clathrate, but I'm going to research it, so thank you for that :).

Azides and acetylides are much better primaries, I agree, but the materials are rather difficult to obtain..and very expensive compareatively.

[-=HeX=-]

Yes DPPP is a myth, but neither of us mentioned it.

APAN mixes ARE more stable than straight AP...one of the factors in spontaneity is surface area...not only does APAN have less surface area of AP, but it also has surface area that is absolutely useless. This is going to lead to a significantly less sensitive product. Still sensitive but not AS sensitive. Especially if the mixes are kept separately, if it's a booster charge at standard ratio then there would only be 10g AP.

DPPP was mentioned WAY back. And in HE comps they are only as STABLE (read, STABLE. NOT SENSITIVE) as their most UNSTABLE part. APAN IS less sensitive to shock BUT is still far too dangerous. Trust me on that - I was still using AP comps for fun while having ETN and RDX and such on hand.

As far as HMTD outperforming AP in every way, I don't know what you're talking about. HMTD in smaller quantities is prone to not quite reaching DDT. Further, the VOD is ~4000m/s versus 5000m/s (HMTD : AP). Also, in a lot of countries getting hexamine (methanamine) can be difficult.
HMTD also does not store well, at all. You cannot store it with metals or it becomes incredibly sensitive.

VoD has no real function in the physics of initiation. Brisance and actual DDT charactaristica are the real important things. I am a newb here but am no newb elsewhere. Also, metal cap casings are BAD. Shrapnel, remember? And, metal caps ARE worse for initiation- TESTED AND PROVED (will create a thread on it soon enough).

Another huge advantage AP has is that forms a very, VERY good plastique with polyisobutylene. HMTD becomes lumpy and coarse, which as we all know is bad for the whole sensitivity issue. Further the negative oxygen balance means you can significantly boost performance by adding AN to the plastique.

AP plastique is suicide - the crystals can still have friction causing triboluminescence and detonation -> loss of hands. AP is an entropic detonation and OB does not matter due to it being entropic, hence the byproducts do not combust in DETONATION of it, unlike normal HE.

NG is NOT safer by any stretch of the imagination to create. Have you ever heard of a runaway peroxidation? No you haven't, but runaway nitrations are fairly common in nigger-rigged setup. This will usually result in an explosion.
Also, as far as the materials go, you need sulfuric acid (95-100%!), and a nitrate salt (which is AWFUL for safety, for a somewhat safe reaction you need nitric at 95-100%!!)
Oh and what's that other grave danger? Lemme think, oh yeah NOx, an extremely toxic gas...

NG is safe if you have half a brain. And with AN the Nitrate salt method is very safe to use - and I only had ONE runaway - my first ever try. Since then I have over 200 synths of it under my belt and have set off kilos of it over time. Properly refined it is EXTREMELY safe. Oh, and for the NOx issue - wearing a gas mask should be STANDARD PRACTISE.

To be honest I've never heard of an azo clathrate, but I'm going to research it, so thank you for that :).

Azides and acetylides are much better primaries, I agree, but the materials are rather difficult to obtain..and very expensive compareatively.


Search SMDB for the beautiful azo clathrates - they are amazing azide based explosives. And Azide, acetylide, etc are not difficult for those resourceful ones.

[death11284]

Ah missed it. I don't really mess with AP anymore, I was just kind of playing the devils advocate. Trying to find more answers against the justification of using it when others aren't available. I haven't had any issues with APAN, I use 30g booster charges for ANFO (on the VERY rare occasions I use ANFO/ANAL). It seems HMTDAN is more prone to partial dets however...I used 70/30 AN:HMTD by weight of course, any idea why I'm having this issue?


VoD has no real function in the physics of initiation. Brisance and actual DDT charactaristica are the real important things. I am a newb here but am no newb elsewhere. Also, metal cap casings are BAD. Shrapnel, remember? And, metal caps ARE worse for initiation- TESTED AND PROVED (will create a thread on it soon enough).

I was under the impression that AP reached maximum pressure rather quickly. I wasn't talking about for caps I was talking about for storage. Caps in a material that would take most of the explosive force would be silly even if they weren't incredibly dangerous. Also I thought that brisance didn't matter in cap, just VOD? And it's proven...not proved..just a little OCD.

AP plastique is suicide - the crystals can still have friction causing triboluminescence and detonation -> loss of hands. AP is an entropic detonation and OB does not matter due to it being entropic, hence the byproducts do not combust in DETONATION of it, unlike normal HE.

Well can't the crystals do that anyways? Wouldn't plasticizing make them less coarse reducing that chance? I've actually never heard the term entropic, I know entropy is relating to the chaos in the system...does it have to do with the heat of formation or something? If so that would make sense...didn't know that :).


NG is safe if you have half a brain. And with AN the Nitrate salt method is very safe to use - and I only had ONE runaway - my first ever try. Since then I have over 200 synths of it under my belt and have set off kilos of it over time. Properly refined it is EXTREMELY safe. Oh, and for the NOx issue - wearing a gas mask should be STANDARD PRACTISE.


Yes, all correct information, but the modifier "half a brain" seems to alter things. No offense to dark, but I saw the words "200g batches of AP" and I felt it wise to not assume the whole half a brain thing. I actually haven't had a runaway with NG before, I did with ETN once though...and since I had done it in an everclear bottle (properly cleaned with distilled water, it was stupid I know) I got a few glass shards embedded in my arms.
Another issue with it is that people who are rather "new" to the hobby tend to not want to be too particular about things.
For example, when pouring off the nitro layer, most "newbs" tend to pour a bit too much, which fucks things up pretty good for obvious reasons. Also, adding too little bicarb to neutralize, not washing it enough times, etc. As you no doubt know, acidic NG is very, very, bad.
Again, for me wearing a gas mask with activated charcoal inserts IS standard procedure, but a lot of people just don't do it. NOx has a fairly low LD50...and the amount it takes to make you pass out, at which point you can't get away from it anymore, is shocking.


Search SMDB for the beautiful azo clathrates - they are amazing azide based explosives. And Azide, acetylide, etc are not difficult for those resourceful ones.

I'll do that, thank you. By the way, you seem to know quite a bit. I have heard of ETN being sensitized to fuse-sensitive using Al powder. Any idea if this is possible? I know ETN has a ridiculously positive OB, and that it would make sense, but that's a big, big jump in sensitivity!
I think that would be a pretty awesome cap if done properly.

[darkangel]

ap works if you need a very heat sensitive primary, or something easy to make for the 4th of july.
personally this year i got 20 of the wide mouth 1 liter mason jars and a chest freezer
so this year is going to be big

[-=HeX=-]

I'll do that, thank you. By the way, you seem to know quite a bit. I have heard of ETN being sensitized to fuse-sensitive using Al powder. Any idea if this is possible? I know ETN has a ridiculously positive OB, and that it would make sense, but that's a big, big jump in sensitivity!
I think that would be a pretty awesome cap if done properly.

ETN:Al 70:30 worked well as a fuse sensitive compound to make the DDT in a det - however dets using it are big inefficient pieces of shit.

As for the darkangle fella, shut up. Everything you say is pure kewl SHIT which needs a :bsflag:

I recall considering BANNING dakangle from RX actually...

ANYWAY... I currently have an AP synth on the go, I did not bother measure anything - merely guesstimated it all as its to test a flash effect trick.

IMHO, try move off peroxides, AP is too lethal for use.

Entropic means, in the case of TATP, it detonates making Acetone and Ozone. And its in general shit :P

[darkangel]

you considered banning me for my atrocious spelling,witch i have actually been working on.
also i was not lie-ing i like A.P since it is easy to make and goes off with a fuse.
If i sound like a k-e-w-l as you say, it is not intentional.
i know that a.p is unstable, but it is what i like.
also for 1,i don't like making ap in my food refrigerator,and2,i break a lot of jars .
so this year i will have a lot for the 4th,but no where near what you think

[-=HeX=-]

Darkangle: I had other reasons for banning you - except I thought you showed some promise. When visiting Rorta I realized you were a bombshit kewl and needed execution - just needed one slip :P

Also, I happen to have some AP at the moment for tests - Its horrible stuff. Breaking jars is nothing to take pride in either.

[darkangel]

well hex ,it may not be something to take pride in ,but it happens.
also i know just how unstable ap is ,but it is easy to make . That is the ONLY reason i keep
at it. for my spelling i'm still working on it.
as for the other reasons ,i am curious what they are .

[-=HeX=-]

Well how about this, your contribution was from a kewl manual of idiocy. Yes, it WORKS, just NOT reliably. That pissed me off majorly as any true explosives enthusiast knows reliability is a MUST. I do admit yesterday I had a misfire, and then ANOTHER misfire but the problem was with the commercially produced ignition units failure to function reliably.

Anyways thats in the past, so lets move on from my anger with you eh?

I appreciate your reasoning for using AP and fully understand it - I myself was at that stage aged TWELVE. If a thirteen year old kid can make nitroglycerin SAFELY and use it - I am sure you can. I am now seventeen, and fully able to use proper explosives like RDX, PETN, NG, TNT, ETN, PGDN, EGDN, lead/silver azide, fulminates, azo clathrates, azotetrazoles, nitrotetrazoles, AND peroxides. Broaden your spectrum and use safety.

Why not tell me about what else, beside AP you can make?

[darkangel]

sure hex,
as for other explosives really not much.
ng ,ap ,rdx,homemade gun powder(i think that counts ) and that kno3 sugar shit .
then again i live in the middle of the mountains so most of my chemicals are mail order ,
take a guess how long that takes and add a week to it .

[death11284]

So...chemicals are hard to get ahold of but you can make RDX?
That seems like kind of a logical anomaly...

[darkangel]

i know how to make it and can make it in small amounts but the vast majority ,of my chemicals are mail order

[-=HeX=-]

Death: RDX manufacture is rather simple, in fact, one can recycle the expended chemicals so many times to make it VERY cheap. Hexamine via NH3 and Formaldehyde, NH3 from NH4NO3 and NaOH (with water) (NaNO3 byproduct), HNO3 via H2SO4 and the NaNO3. The spent acid is treated with NaOH to recycle the HNO3 into NaNO3 which becomes... HNO3. The H2SO4 can be made by the old boiling batteries method...

Basically, the preparation can be done OTC with great recycling by the thrifty man (or woman).

[death11284]

I understand that it's rather simple, but the limiting factor he was talking about it chemicals. Sure, hexamine is easy to synthesize...I'd rather just buy it at a camp store but if you can't it's pretty easy. Like it's in 99% of towns somewhere in huge tablets.

Again, the H2SO4 is pretty easy to get via boiling down battery acid and using a density table..though 99% can be a bit tricky.

The hard part is the nitric...it needs to be 99-100% conc and impurity free...I'm sure you have some response to this, but to get that conc you need to distill. To me it seems very little access to chemicals is very little access to lab-grade glassware, which is kind of a necessity...not to mention removing the nitrous oxide impurities...urea nitrate is fairly easy to get in agricultural states however...

Not to mention the conc still won't be quite high enough...further concentrating would be needed and that again requires good glassware. One thing I'd suggest from personal experience that I never thought of until a friend suggested it is teflon tape for the joints.

I'm not saying it can't be done, hell I did it when I was 14-15, though it didn't turn out so well (vaseline on the joints xD) I'm just saying it's rather difficult without proper supplies.

I simply found it odd that he'd say "not much as far as explosives go, just ya know RDX"

[darkangel]

lol ,yes it is funny when you re-read it,
this is where i get most of my stuff it is a bit pricey but they have most of what i need,and they deliver ,unlike united nuclear .


shell shit I'm tired chat when the sun rises

[-=HeX=-]

I find teflon tape is good for wrapping the joints, but silicon caulk will work in the short term. My HNO3 is rendered NOx free by bubbling dry air and adding urea, however it already comes in good purity without this treatment from the still - temp control is the key :)

I personally advise on recycling your 'useless byproducts' as that can save you MUCH money in the long term :)

[Saturday]

I think the importance is the strength of the explosive. Why use such a sensitive explosive, if the yield is small and it seems to be triggered by everything except electronic pulse and chemical reaction (assuming there isn't a chemical trigger, im not much of a chemist).
If someone was able to fill a tennis ball with AP, put in a wick, and light the fuse, what would be the outcome? Is it purely a forceful explosive, requiring a strong encasing in order to produce shrapnel, etc., or does it produce a fireball?
Not challenging, but you should provide a much better idea of what you are teaching someone to produce, before giving them half-instructions. If this was a molotov cocktail recipe, everyone knows that its basically just the simplest form of a fire-spreading explsove, but when your dealing with combustables, its a different matter.

[-=HeX=-]

It would detonate. Simply put, it would go kaboom, and pack quite a punch.

It aint a combustible, it is a high explosive. Also, here we teach you how to MAKE the material, NOT how to make a bomb from it. We leave that up to the end user.

It can be triggered chemically, but with great difficulty. And by electronic pulse, do you mean a 'electric spark' or whatnot?

Basically, get a fucking clue before you play with HE.

I cannot remember which chem mix sets it off, but I recall having one. I believe it was a mix of AP, HMTD, copper powder then a few drops of HCl. The HMTD/Cu/HCl react and something funky happens cos after a while it just goes off.

I have not bothered working out what happens... Yet.

[digermane]

Basically, get a fucking clue before you play with HE.

I cannot remember which chem mix sets it off, but I recall having one. I believe it was a mix of AP, HMTD, copper powder then a few drops of HCl. The HMTD/Cu/HCl react and something funky happens cos after a while it just goes off.

I have not bothered working out what happens... Yet.

The HCl would oxidize the copper in a reasonably exothermic reaction producing hydrogen gas. The hydrogen gas would react with atmospheric oxygen and oxygen in solution producing enough heat to detonate the HMTD.

[-=HeX=-]

Negative Digermane.

HMTD complexes and forms salts with copper. The acid catalyses this, and the copper salts of the HMTD are horribly unstable. The reaction forming them is also exothermic, and it produces enough heat to detonate them.

I obtained a funky green 'stuff' by refluxing a mix of HMTD and copper powder in acetone with added HCl. There was a funky ass green stuff that vanished within seconds.

Perhaps if I could isolate it it could be identified, but I have no interest in doing so until I can do so with professional facilities, proper safety gear, and other trained personnel.

[digermane]

You do realize that the metal must be oxidized in order to complex, right?

What happens when HMTD is mixed with copper powder in a neutral solvent at RT? Is the HMTD able to oxidize the copper on its own? My intuition tells me that you're assuming multiple reactions are one, however this is easily testable by doing kinetics experiments on the reaction. I would be interested in the results.

[-=HeX=-]

IIRC wither the peroxide groups oxidize the copper, or, the copper reacts with the amine groups in a multi stage reaction, probably acid catalysed. forming mixed salts. It is certainly not one compound, more likely a mix of various compounds all reduced by the copper, or reacted with the copper, to varying extents. More recent experimentation showed at least some of the compounds formed either decomposed or dissolved in water... However, seeing as I like my fingers and am ceasing all HE experiments until a bit into the future, I will not be working on it much. Certainly fascinating from an academic point of view, but not at all for practical use - as HMTD is, in my opinion, a material to avoid.

I know HCl-Fe makes a good reducing mix, perhaps here it is the same effect, and the exotherm is enough to initiate the unstable products/side products. I am not sure, I will look into it. However, I think that running an IR spectrogram while this is reacting could shed some light on what on earth is going on, as would isolation of the products formed int he reactions and analysis of such material.