Justification of Shoplifting.

[.VX]

We all know that there's nothing wrong with shoplifting, taking meaningless amounts from the big capitalist corporations.

But I can't think of any good arguments to justify shoplifting to conservative christians (and the likes).

Most people these days, ever since their birth, are taught a bullshit propagandistic dogma that consists of set guidelines, saying what is 'Good' and what is 'Bad'. I mostly blame this on the Bible, but that's another issue. But these people, they don't even consider what they're preaching, instead of using common sense, they just blurt out these meaningless word, 'Good and 'Bad'. In today's society, 'Right' and 'Wrong' are used as absolute nouns, and no one ever fucking questions any of it.

But my question is; How do I get people to put aside their "morals" and subsequently open them up to more idea? More specifically, after I've got them to reconsider their values, what are some good arguments to support shoplifting?

[Also, Mods, feel free to move this to philosophical if you want. I wasn't sure whether it'd be considered a question of politics, or morals.]

[DJ Poppinfresh]

With the christians you're describing, it seems impossible - seeing as the mindlessly swallow the literal phrases of "the good book".

But, still, it can't truely be justified. Doesn't stop anyone.

Why do you need to prove yourself to these people?

[odin_dax]

Sorry, guys, but I find both of your statements about Christians highly offensive and full of bullshit. Yeah, there are people that fit those stereotypes, but all people fit into many stereotypes. The fact that Christians don't put aside their beliefs is because they don't want to, not that they can't. Also, view the Bible and all other religions as universal wisdom. Life is too short to make all the mistakes, so you might as well learn from others and avoid making some of the same ones. Even forgetting all the unprovable in the Bible, it is still a valuable read in terms of life and society. Yes, I know some haters will argue otherwise, so look at any other "books."

As for me, yes, I am a Christian. And, no, I don't blindly follow anything. My faith's journey has been long and hard. I'm not going to cast my pearls before swine, as it is rightfully said in the Bible and very appropriate here, but I'm not perfect, and neither is any other Christian. All of us make mistakes, all of us sin. How many Christians break the law by jaywalking or speeding? Those are sins, technically. Of course, I can only speak on behalf of Christians. I do not have a Muslim or Jewish background, nor a Buddhist one.

It can't be argued in a religious context or non to justify stealing. It is wrong. PERIOD. The fact that you someone justify your actions and needless venture is your own warped reasoning. Yes, I've stolen many things in my past, but it's not because I found some magically justification for doing so. It was my own greed. It's wrong because it's against the law. It's immoral because you are stealing from someone else. The losses get passed on to real consumers. Look at the banking system for a great example. It is wrong to steal in the Bible because most examples were people stealing from people in a time when theft had a huge impact in survival.

It isn't the fault of any one business why they're successful, nor should the be punished for it. They shouldn't be punished either for having something you want and can't afford, or choose not to afford. It is their property, so why do you think it's every justified to take something that isn't yours? It's not!

Do it all you want, I don't care really. Don't steal from me of course. However, don't think for a moment that people will see eye to eye with your reasoning if you ever can convince anyone to give up his faith because of some flawed logical speech. I certainly doubt it. Further, there are many non-religious people who also don't steal. What about them? We're a society of laws. We need laws to function as a collective society. We have law enforcers to prevent a breakdown of society, a total anarchy if you will. If you don't like the laws of this country, I challenge you to find a better one more suited to your extracurricular activities, VX.

Cheers.

[.VX]

Sorry, guys, but I find both of your statements about Christians highly offensive and full of bullshit. Yeah, there are people that fit those stereotypes, but all people fit into many stereotypes. The fact that Christians don't put aside their beliefs is because they don't want to, not that they can't. Also, view the Bible and all other religions as universal wisdom. Life is too short to make all the mistakes, so you might as well learn from others and avoid making some of the same ones. Even forgetting all the unprovable in the Bible, it is still a valuable read in terms of life and society. Yes, I know some haters will argue otherwise, so look at any other "books."

Ok, firstly, when I said 'Conservative Christians', that was just me generalising, I'm not talking about religious folk specifically and I'm not asking how to get people renounce their religion.

I just want people to reconsider those set 'guide lines' that everybody follows, telling us what is right and wrong. I agree that stealing is 'wrong' in most situations.

It isn't the fault of any one business why they're successful, nor should the be punished for it. They shouldn't be punished either for having something you want and can't afford, or choose not to afford. It is their property, so why do you think it's every justified to take something that isn't yours? It's not!

I'm not stealing to try to punish them. I'm stealing because I'm greedy, and if I'm going to steal from someone, then I'd prefer it was them. They're not exactly a positive force in this world, are they?

Do it all you want, I don't care really. Don't steal from me of course. However, don't think for a moment that people will see eye to eye with your reasoning if you ever can convince anyone to give up his faith because of some flawed logical speech. I certainly doubt it. Further, there are many non-religious people who also don't steal. What about them? We're a society of laws. We need laws to function as a collective society. We have law enforcers to prevent a breakdown of society, a total anarchy if you will. If you don't like the laws of this country, I challenge you to find a better one more suited to your extracurricular activities, VX.

Why don't you care?

Because, from what you've already said, it's evident that you do care. Obviously, I'm not going to try to steal from you, or any individual who I don't think they deserve to be stolen from.

Cheers.

Saying 'Cheers' over the internet doesn't have the same effect as it would in real life. Infact, it's quite the opposite.

[Antagonist]

It's wrong because it's against the law.

Obviously I don't even need to say anything about the above statement...just wanted to pick that one sentence out.


But odin, what are you doin' here man? I don't get why you post on this site and you seem to have a lot of posts too, do you just like arguing with people? You are an odd fellow.


Justification of stealing? Well...this if from a US standpoint of view, so here goes. (relative to US mainly)

Its the land of thieves, its for people who think they deserve anything they can take. We stole the fucking land, and "we" are goddamn proud of it (not me, personally.)

We have a long history of stealing, we just call it other things, and disguise it.

Bill Gates, one of the richest men, basically stole other peoples ideas and products, altered them mildly, and made a fortune. Just ask any IT folk, they'll tell you all about why Bill is an asshole. He closed a deal for selling an OS he didn't even have for A LOT of money, and simply bought an OS off some guy for 50 bucks, renamed it...the rest is history.

When you grow up seeing these types of people as being considered highly successful and respected...well, it tends to encourage the attitude.

I'm being too general though, that's more about thievery in general.

The fact is, when store owners lose inventory, they deduct the loss and pass it on to paying customers. They steal from the people who are loyal to them...Crime only leads to more crime. I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell don't want to be that punk that gets fucked over because of someone else's doing, no sir-ee. I'd rather be the trash of society, then let some motherfucker tell me because he couldn't keep track of his own shit, I have to pay extra.

I also don't like the fact that stores like wally-world have to be an 'everything' store, this is bad for the market because instead of a guy owning his own sporting goods store, he works in the sports section of walmart because he can't compete.

Corporations also tend to have less responsibility. Its the constant struggle for more power, and no responsibility. Its greed that makes them think they need an larger store than anyone else, with better prices, and more departments.

I'd much rather see several Joe-Schmoe shops for hardware and know that I can go into each these stores and get personal service, and quality products from someone who is PASSIONATE about what they do, and DESERVE to make a living off of it.

I don't enjoy the cheaper products that are supplied by larger corporations. Its also a lot harder to feel sorry when you don't even know who you are stealing from! There is no guy that greets you at the door and says "Hey buddy, welcome to MY store, if you need any help let me know, I own everything here and know a lot about it." there is just someone who is PAID to say "Hi" or smile at you...

Besides, you know...its just asking for it really. If you make yourself vulnerable to being taken advantage of, its going to happen.

You want a huge warehouse filled with shit that no one else has access to so you can rip people off and make good money?

Well just don't expect that there isn't going to be that one guy who says "Fuck that, I can't afford shit in this world and I want some of that junk"

Its all material possession anyway. Who cares? There's more important things in life than worrying about whether or not you can afford things.

[DJ Poppinfresh]

But odin, what are you doin' here man? I don't get why you post on this site and you seem to have a lot of posts too, do you just like arguing with people? You are an odd fellow.



...You DO know he's a moderator right?


Anyway - Trying to justify shoplifting is hard, seeing as "Justice" is often regarded as the opposite of crime - And last time I checked, shoplifting is a crime...

[.VX]

I was talking about justice, not Justice..

@Antagonist.

That's basically capitalism for you. We're just sinking to their level.

[Th0r]

Bill Gates, one of the richest men, basically stole other peoples ideas and products, altered them mildly, and made a fortune. Just ask any IT folk, they'll tell you all about why Bill is an asshole. He closed a deal for selling an OS he didn't even have for A LOT of money, and simply bought an OS off some guy for 50 bucks, renamed it...the rest is history.

I would seriously suggest you get your facts right about Bill Gates.

Bill Gates did not buy QDOS for $50. He bought it for $50,000 from a Seattle computer technician, a guy called Tim Paterson. MS-DOS is an altered version of QDOS but it is significantly altered.

In fact QDOS was an altered version of CP/M an OS.

Not only did he offer Paterson a reasonable price for it but he also gave Paterson a job at Microsoft several years later.

So... It seems you've been slightly misinformed about why Bill Gates is an asshole.

Sorry for taking the thread off topic but Antagonist was posting a load of crap and I felt the need to correct him.

[hamster]

It's immoral because you are stealing from someone else. The losses get passed on to real consumers. Look at the banking system for a great example.

When you cross over to the world of thief, you cannot hold all the values taught to you in your world of perfection and justification. There is no need for justification, why do you set up hurdles for yourself? So you can fall on your nose? Capitalism fuck or be fucked. Being fucked is more comfortable for many, because all they have to do is lay there, it is the fucking that takes the effort, but which one has more gratification? Religion plays no role in any of this, people both fuck and are fucked wearing the cross, so stop the bullshit
thief law, gross profits are made with smuggling, thievery, or tax evasion

[Antagonist]

My bad th0r, I got my info from the movie "Pirate of Silicon Valley"

I still think Bill is a jerk...


Oh, and sorry but there is no such thing as justice, or Justice for that matter. Its just ice. It "just its...its just its...its just is." most people who preach justice believe in that illogical black and white "right and wrong" type thing. The whole illegal and legal are synonyms for wrong and right type of thing, with no proper justification, nothing to truly justify it. There are several shades of grey, and they are beautiful.

Certain words are chosen very carefully for certain reasons.

Example; "all men are created equal" most sheep who preach that have no clue what it means. Created is the key word. It only takes a second to create.

But back on track.

Good justification to steal, because its just not worth it to worry about money. I was fantasizing about being homeless earlier today just because I don't want to deal with all the little 50-200 dollar expenses that occur daily/weekly from having things. I know I could steal enough to cloth myself, and have food. I wouldn't mind helping people out for $20 for a meal...but to have a job just to live life? I'd rather die living than live dead.

I don't like being peoples little money-making bitch, especially when they are hardly doing anything to actually help me. I mean, paying money for things like printed forms that have no real value? That's insane. My current pay checks are 100/week, I work hard enough, I don't need to be spending it on things that are not useful to me. I need food. I need sleep. If someone tells me I "need" something and they try to make it so I do need it, I'd rather steal it.

[.VX]

Yeah, I mostly agree.

In today's "society" (the word has become slightly hypocritical these days), we are coerced into giving a large portion of our lives the the government (I know we don't directly work for the government, but a large portion of the profits will end up there anyway, ie; The Media Industrial Complex,etc.) just to pay for the basic necessities of life.

I still think Bill is a jerk...


Bill gates is one of the few decent (successful) businessmen around these days.

He gave billions of dollars to various charities that might actually make a difference in this world. And funded a project that may well save all of humanity one day, that seed bank up in Svalbard. Whether we (as a whole) deserve to be saved is a different issue, but he's still made a positive impact in the world in my opinion.

[Antagonist]

Pfft, he only did that to avoid taxes, lots of large-time criminals practice that. Didn't the guy in American gangster do that?

His products SUCK too, and I really hate putting up with them which I don't really have to anymore, but they are practically a monopoly so it still affects me...

I really hate how things go down in value too, economic value is such a shit thing to deal with. You buy something for 1,000 and over time it has a lot of value to you and when you realize you need money and will have to live without it, you'll be real lucky if you can even get half of that depending on how old it is.

And why base our pay on a limited resource? Gold isn't infinite...and the paper is really worthless. I'd much rather do a job, and get "paid" with room and board/food. If I wanted any sort of luxury, trading/bartering would always be an option. "Hey that TV invention looks neat, maybe I could help you unload a bunch for one of your smaller models?" instead of having to work for 2 weeks just to afford a single item that is not food.

relevant quote: "every mans got a field to plow, I know that now...but its like maan I really can't afford the oxen, fee -fi ectera, I smell the warm blood of the bill collector knockin' "

and with the economy where it is now, some people simply can't AFFORD to not steal.

[ZionBlack]

And why base our pay on a limited resource? Gold isn't infinite...and the paper is really worthless. I'd much rather do a job, and get "paid" with room and board/food. If I wanted any sort of luxury, trading/bartering would always be an option. "Hey that TV invention looks neat, maybe I could help you unload a bunch for one of your smaller models?" instead of having to work for 2 weeks just to afford a single item that is not food.


If this was the case there would be no mass production, and every day items like cars, phones, and computers, could not easily
be produced.

[Th0r]

and with the economy where it is now, some people simply can't AFFORD to not steal.

Antagonist if you look through history there has always been extreme poverty and extreme wealth. The fact that the economy has screwed up big time just means that there are more people in the position of extreme poverty and potential homelessness.

[odin_dax]

When you cross over to the world of thief, you cannot hold all the values taught to you in your world of perfection and justification.

Dangerous thinking when you try to justify such "counter-morals". I admit, I've stolen in the past, but it was greed, nothing more. It isn't the changing of morals, it's the ignoring of them. We all know what is wrong and right. Some people profit off it, that's great... for them. I'm not passing judgment, but only engaging in a philosophical discussion.

Ok, firstly, when I said 'Conservative Christians', that was just me generalising, I'm not talking about religious folk specifically and I'm not asking how to get people renounce their religion.

I just want people to reconsider those set 'guide lines' that everybody follows, telling us what is right and wrong. I agree that stealing is 'wrong' in most situations.

I'm not stealing to try to punish them. I'm stealing because I'm greedy, and if I'm going to steal from someone, then I'd prefer it was them. They're not exactly a positive force in this world, are they?

Why don't you care?

Because, from what you've already said, it's evident that you do care. Obviously, I'm not going to try to steal from you, or any individual who I don't think they deserve to be stolen from.


Saying 'Cheers' over the internet doesn't have the same effect as it would in real life. Infact, it's quite the opposite.

I don't care, but stating my personal opinion apart from my generalized argument doesn't mean that the two are dependent.

I say "cheers" at the end of any long statement, like a letter. I'll chalk up your personal opinion on the matter up there with the locals who hate San Francisco being called "Frisco." :wiggle:

Obviously I don't even need to say anything about the above statement...just wanted to pick that one sentence out.

A philosophical discussion...


But odin, what are you doin' here man? I don't get why you post on this site and you seem to have a lot of posts too, do you just like arguing with people? You are an odd fellow.

What do you mean? I post in all forums, but I do enjoy the talks, if you will. Let me make it clear, I'm not arguing, just making statements. It's just my style of writing. I do attack statements I find weak, yes, but I only engage in such things to a) refine my own views, b) find out other views and judge whether or not to accept them, c) argue (not fight) counter-statements to practice defending my views and, most importantly, challenge those who hold those views. It's easy to come up with statements and beliefs, but I find most people don't apply any reasoning. From my point of view, it's all in good graces.

Anyway, I post when I can. I'm too busy to really start any new threads, but I do raise points when I can (ie "fingerprints" thread)


Justification of stealing? Well...this if from a US standpoint of view, so here goes. (relative to US mainly)

Its the land of thieves, its for people who think they deserve anything they can take. We stole the fucking land, and "we" are goddamn proud of it (not me, personally.)

Every country in the world has that history.


We have a long history of stealing, we just call it other things, and disguise it.

Bill Gates, one of the richest men, basically stole other peoples ideas and products, altered them mildly, and made a fortune. Just ask any IT folk, they'll tell you all about why Bill is an asshole. He closed a deal for selling an OS he didn't even have for A LOT of money, and simply bought an OS off some guy for 50 bucks, renamed it...the rest is history.

When you grow up seeing these types of people as being considered highly successful and respected...well, it tends to encourage the attitude.

I'm being too general though, that's more about thievery in general.

The fact is, when store owners lose inventory, they deduct the loss and pass it on to paying customers. They steal from the people who are loyal to them...Crime only leads to more crime. I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell don't want to be that punk that gets fucked over because of someone else's doing, no sir-ee. I'd rather be the trash of society, then let some motherfucker tell me because he couldn't keep track of his own shit, I have to pay extra.

I also don't like the fact that stores like wally-world have to be an 'everything' store, this is bad for the market because instead of a guy owning his own sporting goods store, he works in the sports section of walmart because he can't compete.

Corporations also tend to have less responsibility. Its the constant struggle for more power, and no responsibility. Its greed that makes them think they need an larger store than anyone else, with better prices, and more departments.

I'd much rather see several Joe-Schmoe shops for hardware and know that I can go into each these stores and get personal service, and quality products from someone who is PASSIONATE about what they do, and DESERVE to make a living off of it.

I don't enjoy the cheaper products that are supplied by larger corporations. Its also a lot harder to feel sorry when you don't even know who you are stealing from! There is no guy that greets you at the door and says "Hey buddy, welcome to MY store, if you need any help let me know, I own everything here and know a lot about it." there is just someone who is PAID to say "Hi" or smile at you...

Besides, you know...its just asking for it really. If you make yourself vulnerable to being taken advantage of, its going to happen.

You want a huge warehouse filled with shit that no one else has access to so you can rip people off and make good money?

Well just don't expect that there isn't going to be that one guy who says "Fuck that, I can't afford shit in this world and I want some of that junk"

Its all material possession anyway. Who cares? There's more important things in life than worrying about whether or not you can afford things.

See. there's some thought behind those words. Nice statement, Ant.