My justification of stealing

[Hawkeye]

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[odin_dax]

Nature is all about survival. The only thing that every organism does on Earth is try to stay alive by any means neccessary. This always means preying on another organism. In one way or another, life's real meaning is "every man for himself".

If a lion is chasing a gazelle, does he skid to a halt and think about how the gazelle might feel about having a brutal death?
Does a cat put a chick out of its misery with a swift bite to the neck?
Does a cow stop to think whether the grass has feelings, or intelligence, or a nervous system?
Does a Komodo dragon spit out its young and cry,
"Oh good lord, I'm eating my own child. How could I eat my own flesh and blood!"


The truth is that nature doesn't give a fuck whether you have a nervous system, or a brain, or feelings. Nature is about survival, and there are no ethical rules as to how you go about it.


Human beings are a result of nature, and that goes for our intelligence too. If it is possible for intelligence to occur at our level, then nature meant it to be so. In this universe, there are no rules. How ever we use our intelligence, we are neither right nor wrong, because we are a part of nature, and nature is lawless.


If a human steals and sells belongings to survive, what organism in this universe has the right to challenge its ethics? If the lion leaves the dead gazelle unattended, it goes without saying that it will be devoured by the nearest carnivores. If someone leaves their valuables unattended, then naturally I will steal them.

Wow, that was absolutely the worst comparison I've ever read.

We've had "justification of stealing" threads before, and nobody has ever been able to get by the basic motivation of selfishness. There is a difference between "need" and "want". If someone steals unattended items, it isn't because you need those, because if you did, you wouldn't wait for opportunity to present them, you'd hunt for them. The simple fact that you're using the internet regularly enough to post here only proves that you're not destitute.

In a broad discussion, there is no justification or moral principle to steal. Besides that, everybody is able to get a job and put food on the table. Many people don't "shit" jobs because of pride. Many don't adjust their living style if economics change.

Yes, a lion does what it does to survive. A lion has to eat, but even in it's hunting it acts as humanely as possible. As a species, humans are not in danger, so drawing that as an example to steal doesn't make sense. It is true that a lot of ethics would go out the window in dire situations, but not for all people and not all ethics, regardless of remorse.

So, what situation are you living in that justifies you stealing and not applying for a job at McDonald's?

[hamster]

Wow, that was absolutely the worst comparison I've ever read.

There is a difference between "need" and "want".

If someone steals unattended items, it isn't because you need those, because if you did, you wouldn't wait for opportunity to present them, you'd hunt for them.

The simple fact that you're using the internet regularly enough to post here only proves that you're not destitute.

In a broad discussion, there is no justification or moral principle to steal.

Many don't adjust their living style if economics change.



1 Odin why do you say that? You have a better example please post it here I would like to read

2 There is? Odin are you a monk who lives on 20g of rice a day? Then you should be well aware of the non existing lines between need and want in commercialism

3 What makes you so sure odin? You live in a first world country, where have you have been raised. What makes you so sure the words you speak mean a single fuck to anyone who was on the other side of the wall?

4 Just because one has internet access, is that really what its all about is finances? If it was all about money all of us in the 1st world nations would run for politicians, or corporate bitches. Its about doing what you love, one loves to write, they are a poet, one loves to fuck they are a porn star, one loves to kill they go into army, one loves to steal, then one loves to steal. Its predetermined at birth how a person skills will develop, sociability, physical ability, mental capacity, and psychological viewpoint.

5 no moral principle? how about stealing from a fucked government? One that sent you to prison for no reason? Or maybe one just loves to steal? Look by the looks of things, you are by no standards a psychologist, so why put down such a broad statement?

6 Why in the fuck should I change? Just because some fat fucks in the political stance decided they want to go to the black sea a few more times this year, or maybe their oxycotton supply is running out, why should I pay for that? If you would like to be fucked in the ass please go ahead, but I would rather fuck then be fucked, you seem like you like to play how you say, devil's advocate when it comes to topics such as this, please elaborate more on your stance, I may not be understanding you clearly.

[Th0r]

Question directed towards Hawkeye - Are you interested in Anarcho-Primitivism?

Or other similar topics?

It may be relevant to the discussion.

[odin_dax]

1 Odin why do you say that? You have a better example please post it here I would like to read

I don't need to. The need for survival is not synonymous with the want to steal. As I said, there are many jobs out there that people just don't want to take.


2 There is? Odin are you a monk who lives on 20g of rice a day? Then you should be well aware of the non existing lines between need and want in commercialism

Yes, there is a difference. We're not talking about different kinds of food here. The premise was an excuse to steal for survival. I questioned that survival, and whether one even exists. There are always shades of gray and exceptions to rule, but that's not we're talking about either.


3 What makes you so sure odin? You live in a first world country, where have you have been raised. What makes you so sure the words you speak mean a single fuck to anyone who was on the other side of the wall?

Philosophy and reason has no borders or walls. Sorry if I've offended you, but you confuse "need" with "mode"


4 Just because one has internet access, is that really what its all about is finances? If it was all about money all of us in the 1st world nations would run for politicians, or corporate bitches. Its about doing what you love, one loves to write, they are a poet, one loves to fuck they are a porn star, one loves to kill they go into army, one loves to steal, then one loves to steal. Its predetermined at birth how a person skills will develop, sociability, physical ability, mental capacity, and psychological viewpoint.

This is true, because someone has net access it doesn't mean anything about their finances, only that they can afford to use the internet. If someone is starving, and makes the comparison with lions hunting for food, why would anyone in such a dire situation come online, search out this site, register and post 30+ posts, only to have the most recent one be about stealing? As a mod, I can see the IP address. (I won't post any personal information of course.) Hawk is from a first world country, so my statements are applicable.
The rest of your statements are totally irrelevant, and your conclusion is totally baseless, not to mention wrong.


5 no moral principle? how about stealing from a fucked government? One that sent you to prison for no reason? Or maybe one just loves to steal? Look by the looks of things, you are by no standards a psychologist, so why put down such a broad statement?

As I've stated earlier, philosophy and reason have no borders, nor does moral principle. Stealing is stealing, whether it's a crime against a fucked government or not. If one sends you to prison for no reason, what the fuck does that have to do with this discussion?

P.S. I've studied psychology for three years. I'm not claiming to be a psychologist or an expert, but I know more than you think I do.


6 Why in the fuck should I change? Just because some fat fucks in the political stance decided they want to go to the black sea a few more times this year, or maybe their oxycotton supply is running out, why should I pay for that? If you would like to be fucked in the ass please go ahead, but I would rather fuck then be fucked, you seem like you like to play how you say, devil's advocate when it comes to topics such as this, please elaborate more on your stance, I may not be understanding you clearly.

I don't care if you steal or not, that totally wasn't the point of my post. Read the structure before you post emotional replies. I'm not saying you should change either. Simple fact, people don't adjust their standards of living in hard economic times. It's basic economics, when income is lower, one makes costs and/or spends less over an itemized list.
As much as I appreciate your living conditions, I do, I don't see how that is directly relevant to the subject of this thread. If you want to broaden the topic, I suggest starting a new one with corrupt governments and citizens' rights as the subject.
I'm not playing devil's advocate. I haven't stated my stance. I've approached this neutrally, but I did question Hawkeye's personal situation. I still haven't seen his reply.

[Hawkeye]

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[hamster]

Odin, I think my English has confused you, please reread what I said, I understood all your points.

I don't need to.
So you think there is 0 justification at all? How can you say that if you are raised in teh conditions you have been raised? Your opinion is very biased, where I am speaking with an open mind.


Yes, there is a difference. We're not talking about different kinds of food here. The premise was an excuse to steal for survival. I questioned that survival, and whether one even exists. There are always shades of gray and exceptions to rule, but that's not we're talking about either.

Odin, even though the original example is what it was, if you read what I said, you could make out that I clearly spoke of pure materialistic gain in theft in the western world where our friend is from



Philosophy and reason has no borders or walls. Sorry if I've offended you, but you confuse "need" with "mode"

Wrong, do you need friends or want friends, if you speak of studying psychology, you would know that there are border areas in our brain when it comes to materialism, and that those border areas incorporate more and more things as people are subjected to materialism and commercialism at a young age, which is the case today, in 2nd world nations.


This is true, because someone has net access it doesn't mean anything about their finances, only that they can afford to use the internet.

odin again you did not understand me, what I said is, outside of the money factor, theft is just a favored way of life for our friend (not biased by money)


As I've stated earlier, philosophy and reason have no borders, nor does moral principle.

Wrong, again a biased western opinion

Stealing is stealing, whether it's a crime against a fucked government or not. If one sends you to prison for no reason, what the fuck does that have to do with this discussion?

morals change when one is pointed out as evil
is it morally wrong to stop a purse snatcher? Or a mugger popping a grandma over the head with a piece of exhaust pipe for her oxycottons? Do you see what I mean?

P.S. I've studied psychology for three years. I'm not claiming to be a psychologist or an expert, but I know more than you think I do.

I never meant to seem underestimating your intelligence or wisdom, you just misunderstood me



I don't care if you steal or not, that totally wasn't the point of my post. Read the structure before you post emotional replies. I'm not saying you should change either. Simple fact, people don't adjust their standards of living in hard economic times. It's basic economics, when income is lower, one makes costs and/or spends less over an itemized list.
As much as I appreciate your living conditions, I do, I don't see how that is directly relevant to the subject of this thread. If you want to broaden the topic, I suggest starting a new one with corrupt governments and citizens' rights as the subject.
I'm not playing devil's advocate. I haven't stated my stance. I've approached this neutrally, but I did question Hawkeye's personal situation. I still haven't seen his reply.
This has nothing to do with corrupt government, or citizens rights. It speaks of the person making a decision because its what they think is right in their head, not biased by what anyone else says. There was 0 emotion in my post, I simply spoke the truth. All I am saying is that personally, because economics go down, because personal income goes down, for whatever reason, I will not stop the commercialism and the materialism that is flowing out of me, and I am sure many will not either. We deem those materialism items necessary for our well being. And that is the way it is, we forget the necessities, and frankly we have the right to, theft is a profession, with long hours and very demanding on the body and mind. Why should I not be able to deem whatever I need for survival whatever I want? If I feel that I need a new 760li in my driveway for my own well being, what is stopping me? I say I need it, then I will work and get it. Who decides what is necessary for survival? Only you do.

[ZionBlack]

Another example might be a scorpion. It could hunt like a lion, but instead it prefers to sit on its ass until an opportunity presents itself, i.e. it waits in its dwelling for insects to crawl by the opening. Then SNATCH, it captures the insect and eats it. A spider relaxes in its web until a fly is stupid enough to get stuck in it. This is because nature doesn't exert more energy than it needs to. So why should I work at McDonald's when I can survive more easily by snatching people's belongings?




Even if a lion does act humanely when hunting, its feline cousin, the cat surely likes to drag out its consumption of baby chicks. Then again, why does a cat eat chicks when it is fed by its master? Its not in any danger. The cat doesn't need the bird, it wants it. The reason it proceeds to slowly eat it, is because there is no universal law prohibiting it to do so. One of the subliminal things I've been trying to say here, is that by moral standards in human society, nature is brutal and merciless, whereas stealing pales in comparison.

these exact reasons are why cats, and scorpions, aren't the most intelligent creatures on earth. the same way you wouldn't expect a 10 week old baby to follow the standards of etiquette that an adult would, you cant possibly expect a cat to follow the same ethical and moral standards as a human being.

I"m not saying that stealing is something one shouldn't do. but its not Morally justified unless its a matter of Steal and live, or Don't steal and die.

[hamster]

what about the psychological need for material goods in an economy that does not allow for economic growth any other way then thievery?

[ZionBlack]

Since when does the economy not allow for economic growth?

[redjoker]

I believe if the goods were ill-gotten to begin with then they are up for grabs. I show no mercy to banks, wal-marts, and chiropractors. There are a few others but those are the big three.

[hamster]

Since when does the economy not allow for economic growth?

in first world capitalist nations it does, studying basic 12th grade history will help

[DominoKett]

Since when does the economy not allow for economic growth?

...um, when its decreasing. like the current recession the U.S. is in.

my justification is that i went to school for a long ass time and now that im stepping into the work world the economy turns to shit. i know theres still jobs out there but i would need to work harder for less money, than i would have had to, had i been stepping into a career lets say a few years back, which is bullshit. you could argue that "thats life, dont expect it to be fair" which is exactly right and thats what makes stealing just, especially in these times.

[Ac3i6]

I think..

---------------------------------Stealing (as an act)---------------------------------
---------------------------------|------------------|----------------------------------
--------------------------Motivational-----------Instinctive(Survival)-------------
----------------------------|--------------------------------|-------------------------
---------- I want to have that!---------------------- I have(need) to have that!-
-------------|----------------|--------------------------|-------------------|-------
-Consciously(greedy)-----Unconsciously(klepto)------- Essential needs---Panic-----


Choose your justification ^^

[NewSpeak]

I think..

---------------------------------Stealing (as an act)---------------------------------
---------------------------------|------------------|----------------------------------
--------------------------Motivational-----------Instinctive(Survival)-------------
----------------------------|--------------------------------|-------------------------
---------- I want to have that!---------------------- I have(need) to have that!-
-------------|----------------|--------------------------|-------------------|-------
-Consciously(greedy)-----Unconsciously(klepto)------- Essential needs---Panic-----


Choose your justification ^^

Nice branching tree, but I'd add a third branch from the trunk of the tree: "substitutional".

That's when the act of stealing is nothing more than a fill-in for a different emotional or tangible need/desire.

Examples: stealing something to sell it and make quick money, or stealing something in order to feel the pride/ego boost of having thwarted the system.