Same-sex Marriage

[odin_dax]

Recently, I've come under fire from some of my friends back home in California for supporting the overwhelmingly favored ban of same-sex marriage. I favor the ban for several reasons.

1) California favored to ban same-sex marriage in 2000, but the judges overturned it. Judges should not legislate from the bench, nor ignore the will of the people. However, this hardly is a valid point because it's not central to the issue.

2) In the US, we're often reminded of the words "separation of church and state." Marriage is a religious ceremony, so why should the state decide religious doctrine because a practice (for lack of a better word) has become socially popular.

3) My religion teaches that homosexuality is a sin. Still, we are taught to hate the sin, not the sinner. Anyone who favors hateful methods is not acting in good faith with God's or Jesus' teachings. However, same-sex marriage is a slap in the face for any faithful. I personally believe in God and the Bible, so I cannot just set aside my beliefs because they're not popular amongst society.

In anticipation of attack, I expanded my honest position. (paraphrased)

1) Although a lot of bigots will vote on the proposition to ban same-sex marriage, not everyone who votes to ban it (a lot of people in this case) are bigots simply because they vote for the ban. That's illogical.

2) My religion, and any Christian faith, teaches us not to hate anyone. We are all God's children.

3) Regardless of my religious beliefs, that won't change the fact that there are same-sex couples and they should have the same CIVIL rights as married couples, all legal and governmental benefits. In regard to this, there should be civil unions or registered partnerships. However, in the political climate of California, most people blur these two definitions together.

In response, I did receive responses like...

1) Anyone who bases beliefs on hateful religious ideology is an idiot.

2) My reasoning doesn't make sense.

3) If God hated same-sex couples, then He wouldn't have created them.

To which I responded,

1) Again, my religion doesn't teach hate. I do not hate anyone, and I don't think society or state should rewrite religious doctrine when something becomes socially popular.

2) My reasoning doesn't make sense only if you disagree with it. At least I do have reasoning behind it, unlike the many that actually HATE gays.

3) The same logic can then be applied to murderers, and that wouldn't make much sense.

Then I added this gem...

I find myself with growing concern that so many that preach tolerance and understanding continually show little or none for any who disagree with them.

In conclusion, I never attacked anyone for their views, but thanked them for their opinion and said that even though our conclusions differed, at least we can discuss the issue in a meaningful manner.

*****
I did not write this out for personal attack or defense (since I've been doing that already), but to illustrate an example. I do realize that for many who are not religious, my reasoning may not be accepted, but it should be understood and respected. We all are different, and I do not hang my religion over anyone or claim that everyone must follow it. So, in regard to this post and thread, do you support same-sex marriage or not and WHY? Let the discussion begin.

[Th0r]

1) Another fantastic example of people, in this case Judges making decisions against what the people want, probably in the view of 'Political Correctness' and that a ban on same-sex marriage is homophobic. Undoubtebly there are Homophobes wanting Same-Sex marriages banned but in honesty that's life.

2) I'm not Christian [Although I was... Once upon a time.] or religious at all, and so I don't really have an opinion on seperation of 'Church and State'.

However.

In anticipation of attack, I expanded my honest position.

2) My religion, and any Christian faith, teaches us not to hate anyone. We are all God's children.


Agreed, as this is what the Bible says. [Undoubtebly someone will emerge from the Woodwork to say "If we're all Gods children, what makes Jesus so special?" Etc.]

3) My religion teaches that homosexuality is a sin. Still, we are taught to hate the sin, not the sinner. Anyone who favors hateful methods is not acting in good faith with God's or Jesus' teachings. However, same-sex marriage is a slap in the face for any faithful. I personally believe in God and the Bible, so I cannot just set aside my beliefs because they're not popular amongst society.

You are only the second person I have ever heard to say that.

XxXxX

My view - England is obviously very different to America [In your case the state of California] in terms of how we determine laws and legalise certain things Etc.

I'm not Gay or religious so I'm neutral on the matter. I'm for Same-Sex marriage if it's a marriage or a union of love and not a five minute thing like some high profile Same-Sex marriages in the UK have been.

XxXxX

http://forum.rorta.net/showthread.php?t=1342

The first thread on Gay/Same-Sex Marriage. Went badly OT.

[crazy white guy]

Its hard for me to give a fair discussion about this topic. I dont believe in religion. I think the world would be a better place without it but I still respect Christians if they dont shove it in people's faces. The only real problem I see with gay marriages is the religious and now you know my stance on that. I have quite a few gay friends. In my school theres a group that is in the closet but flamboyantly homosexual. I am friends with a few of them and dont have any problem with any of them. I wouldn't do anything against them for no reason. so in conclusion. I dont have any problem with gay people and I dont believe in hobo zombies that supposedly have chilled with buddha and ghandi.

[7eleven mafia]

why isnt this in the other thread on gay marriage?

[Vein]

1) California favored to ban same-sex marriage in 2000, but the judges overturned it. Judges should not legislate from the bench, nor ignore the will of the people. However, this hardly is a valid point because it's not central to the issue.

2) In the US, we're often reminded of the words "separation of church and state." Marriage is a religious ceremony, so why should the state decide religious doctrine because a practice (for lack of a better word) has become socially popular.


1) The judges overturned it because they saw it going against civil liberties, not because they're legislating from the bench.

2) What you said doesn't make sense to me. Actually banning the 'religious practice' of same sex marriage would be combining church and state, so shouldn't they avoid the banning process in the first place? I think so.

[Th0r]

why isnt this in the other thread on gay marriage?

It's a Cesspit of Off-Topicness...

Seriously I can't see why or how Hitler fits in to Gay-Marriage.

And this is talking about it with direct references to religion and Odin's views.

1) The judges overturned it because they saw it going against civil liberties

I can see what they mean by that, however I'm lead to believe that certain legislations have been passed that are anti-Second Ammendment and a slap in the face of civil liberties in California.

[Vein]

I can see what they mean by that, however I'm lead to believe that certain legislations have been passed that are anti-Second Ammendment and a slap in the face of civil liberties in California.

Sad but true.

[Micro]

Well, I don't give a shit about same-sex marriage.
I just don't care. And why should I? It is their own thing.
The Church has the right to say that they will not allow them and that they will not allow them to be wed in a church.
I also just happend to hate religious/political arguments anywhere on the net.
And well, this is in the Political Showdown so it is in the right place.

But on the right for the gay couples to adopt kids, thats just sick.
I can understand that lesbain couples can just have one or both of them get knocked up.
But man-man couples should not be able to adopt kids, why won't anyone think of the kids?
Just imagine hoe fucked up their life would be. "Haha, your dads are faggots, and so are you!"

[odin_dax]

2) What you said doesn't make sense to me. Actually banning the 'religious practice' of same sex marriage would be combining church and state, so shouldn't they avoid the banning process in the first place? I think so.

From the view that the state allows marriage, a religious practice, to take place between two people of the same sex. Banning same-sex marriage actually protects religion, but I can see your point. However, I'll restate that same-sex couples should have all the same legal rights and state recognition as heterosexual couples do.

[.VX]

[Undoubtebly someone will emerge from the Woodwork to say "If we're all Gods children, what makes Jesus so special?" Etc.]
.
For the sake of this topic, let's just say that the Christian Bible isn't supposed to be taken as literal fact.
But on the right for the gay couples to adopt kids, thats just sick.
I can understand that lesbain couples can just have one or both of them get knocked up.
But man-man couples should not be able to adopt kids, why won't anyone think of the kids?
Just imagine hoe fucked up their life would be. "Haha, your dads are faggots, and so are you!"

Let's make it illegal for black people to have kids, too. All minorities, for that matter! That'll fix the problem. Infact, why don't we just make all forms of non-conformity illegal, so people don't get teased because of it?

[odin_dax]

For the sake of this topic, let's just say that the Christian Bible isn't supposed to be taken as literal fact.

Okay, now what? Do you have a point to make?


Let's make it illegal for black people to have kids, too. All minorities, for that matter! That'll fix the problem. Infact, why don't we just make all forms of non-conformity illegal, so people don't get teased because of it?

I'm afraid I don't get the comparison.

[.VX]

Okay, now what? Do you have a point to make?



I'm afraid I don't get the comparison.

'Twas a response to Th0r's comment about someone saying "If we're all God's children, then what makes Jesus so special?". Assuming that it's all metaphorical (which I think it is), then no one can say that kind of stuff. It was just a pretext for throwing my views out into the conversation.

Well, what's the difference between a black kid bullied because he's black and the son of two gay men being bullied being he'd the son a two gay men. All minorities get shit from people as they grow up. What sets gays aside from everyone else?

[odin_dax]

'Twas a response to Th0r's comment about someone saying "If we're all God's children, then what makes Jesus so special?". Assuming that it's all metaphorical (which I think it is), then no one can say that kind of stuff. It was just a pretext for throwing my views out into the conversation.

Well, what's the difference between a black kid bullied because he's black and the son of two gay men being bullied being he'd the son a two gay men. All minorities get shit from people as they grow up. What sets gays aside from everyone else?

Ah, I see.

Everyone gets teased a little, not just minorities.

[.VX]

I s'pose I should state my stance on Gay Marriage, too.

I think people should be able to do what they want. This goes both ways in that religious folk don't have to let gays be married in their churches in the name of their god. Still, there's no difference between two guys who've been together for forty years, and a couple who've been married for forty years. Marriage is just an expensive label, and when it all comes down to it, it's still love, no matter what it's called.

[hatal]

Thanks for removing my post, without any notification or explanation. :hitwithro

I didn't realize my oppinion was worth a SH*T!

[Th0r]

For the sake of this topic, let's just say that the Christian Bible isn't supposed to be taken as literal fact.


The Bible can be interpreted and translated to mean a variety of things. I only said that to avoid dealing with the whole 'Smart Ass' shit which emerges from some peoples interpretations.

Thanks for removing my post, without any notification or explanation.

I didn't realize my oppinion was worth a SH*T!

Moderator responsible for deletion - Odin Dax

Given reason - Doesn't contribute to the discussion.

Barf ! Same sex marriage? Hell NO!

[hatal]

Ok. Than here comes the detailed, unvarnished version:

I completly reject the idea of same-sex-marriage. Abnormal, unnatural, repulsive. Just another "extension" of an abnormal and perverted lifestyle aimed to break down the traditional family image and to subvert society. And thats version where religion is left out of the game.

To keep a long story short: buttf*cking societies cant survive (and the idea of S.S.M interferes with my digestion as I pointed out before).

No am I the next Hitler or is this oppinion somehow exceptable, significant, productive?

[Th0r]

Just because of the legalisation of same-sex marriage it doesn't turn us in to a society of Homosexuals. Yes, I don't believe a society based entirely on homosexuality can survive, as there is the need for reproduction in order to survival and producing homosexual and heterosexuals. That's where it gets complicated.

Homosexuality has been around for a long time, and probably since the beginning of human existence, however the chances are that we will never know for certain if that is the case. Some of the most famous leaders of civilization were homosexual, or certainly practiced acts of homosexuality. To name a few the Roman Emperor, Hadrian as well as Alexander 'The Great', and there has been a great deal of speculation regarding other leaders and famous people throughout history and their sexuality.

Same-sex marriage in a way is just an extension, if you choose to look at it that way to their rights, but as I have explained I'm only Pro-Same-sex marriage if it's what a marriage is about. A Unity of love, and not just Gay people out to excersise their rights and five minutes down the line seeking an end to their 'Civil Partnership'.

I certainly wouldn't say your the next Hitler, compared to some of my friends and associates views on homosexuals that ring to the tune of a Hitlerite comment. That's the way most people look at homosexuals. It's just one of those things.

We [England and numerous other countries.] have come to accept blacks, Muslims [Almost.], Jews and hell even most immigrants! Just not homosexuals. In fact, we in England will persecute heterosexuals they suspect might be homosexual, as I suspect is the same in many other countries...

[hamster]

Bible, abnormal, so much bullshit everyone says here, yet not a single logical reason for the legal ban on a social behavior.

[odin_dax]

Bible, abnormal, so much bullshit everyone says here, yet not a single logical reason for the legal ban on a social behavior.

Bible = religious reason. Abnormal = scientific and social reason. Bullshit everyone says = Reasoning you don't accept.

Logical reason? There are some. While you don't have to agree with everything people say, there is logic. You may not be a religious man, for example, but because you aren't, that doesn't automatically make everybody who's religious illogical because you don't share their same beliefs.

Further, if you've ever studied logic or philosophy, you would know that "If A is true, then B is true" or "A -> B." Just because you don't accept the premise personally, that doesn't make any statement illogical (especially if you don't counter it). If you can say, "Well, if A is true, then B is logical" then we can have a constructive discussion here. If you want to talk down to others without adding to the discussion, then please don't post in this thread.


***
Let's try to stay on topic, everyone.

[hamster]

why did you edit my post?

[odin_dax]

why did you edit my post?

Sorry, hamster, but I'm trying to keep this thread on-topic. The parts I cut off, you are well aware, had nothing to do with gay-marriage. I'm not editing posts to help prove my case either. In fact, I have no case to prove, just stating my opinion and basis for it. There is no "winning" in discussions like this. Thank you for your concern and questions though.

Back to the subject...

[Th0r]

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/11/05/california-votes-down-same-sex-marriage/

California Bans Same-Sex Marriage...

[odin_dax]

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/11/05/california-votes-down-same-sex-marriage/

California Bans Same-Sex Marriage...

Yep, so did all other states that had it on the ballot. From my perspective, bad night for Republicans, but a good night for propositions. Gay marriage laws will change in the future, just not yet. The way the US approaches the issue from both sides is just too extreme and in-your-face to convince people.

[Pimpin4Life30]

'Twas a response to Th0r's comment about someone saying "If we're all God's children, then what makes Jesus so special?". Assuming that it's all metaphorical (which I think it is), then no one can say that kind of stuff. It was just a pretext for throwing my views out into the conversation.

Well, what's the difference between a black kid bullied because he's black and the son of two gay men being bullied being he'd the son a two gay men. All minorities get shit from people as they grow up. What sets gays aside from everyone else?

Black and Gay? Hmm its a hard one maybe the diffrence could be that the reason bullying a black kid would be any diffrent is Cause he cant change his color.If I was that kid though i think i would kill those fags of parents.

[RoundElephant]

Black and Gay? Hmm its a hard one maybe the diffrence could be that the reason bullying a black kid would be any diffrent is Cause he cant change his color.If I was that kid though i think i would kill those fags of parents.

They can change being gay about as much as you can change being straight.

[.VX]

Black and Gay? Hmm its a hard one maybe the diffrence could be that the reason bullying a black kid would be any diffrent is Cause he cant change his color.If I was that kid though i think i would kill those fags of parents.

Gay people can't just decide to be straight when they want.

Just as a note, I know a guy who's been raised by gays and he doesen't care at all. He's turned out fine.

[Th0r]

Black and Gay? Hmm its a hard one maybe the diffrence could be that the reason bullying a black kid would be any diffrent is Cause he cant change his color.If I was that kid though i think i would kill those fags of parents.

You are very ignorant.

Why do people become Gay?

Because their parents bring them up that way?

No.

[Pimpin4Life30]

So your saying they dont choose to be gay?

I believe that as much as marijuana will be legalized.

Somethins wrong with homosexuals men are supposed to fuck pussy vise versu.

[Th0r]

It's genetic. Hence why people realise they are gay before they have any kind of understanding or knowledge on homosexuality, or sexuality in general for that matter.

Genetically I believe there is a homosexual gene which a large percentage of the population carry with them regardless of their own sexuality. It's kind of similar to the genetics behind several illnesses, the names of which escape my mind, but I think they are connected to Cerebal Palsy.

When I say illnesses I don't think homosexuality is an illness.

[hamster]

It's genetic. Hence why people realise they are gay before they have any kind of understanding or knowledge on homosexuality, or sexuality in general for that matter.

Genetically I believe there is a homosexual gene which a large percentage of the population carry with them regardless of their own sexuality. It's kind of similar to the genetics behind several illnesses, the names of which escape my mind, but I think they are connected to Cerebal Palsy.

When I say illnesses I don't think homosexuality is an illness.

Everyone gets very angry if i say, "NIGGERS ARE NOT TO MARRY" but when you speak of fags, things change sup with that, genetic differences all that separate us from them in theory, so problem?

[Th0r]

Everyone gets very angry if i say, "NIGGERS ARE NOT TO MARRY" but when you speak of fags, things change sup with that, genetic differences all that separate us from them in theory, so problem?

Everyone is genetically different from other people.

Whilst I do disagree with your fairly callous use of the word 'Nigger' [Having trouble remembering the 'interesting' PM I sent you?] we, the Caucasian Race are significantly genetically different from Blacks.

Most people hate homosexuals - Fact of life.

Due to the ways of society everyone seems to love Black folks and 'despise' racism, the same people who go on about how Blacks are persecuted, despite the fact that the majority aren't treated badly. Also these people are the same type who can't stand homosexuals for some obscure reason and will even give other people who aren't gay grief as a result of their prejudice.

In forty years it will be very different. Homosexuals will be incorporated into life. At the inner-city shithole school I was once educated they had a 'Black day'. I expect then we'll have a 'Gay day' celebrating Homosexuals and their differences despite the fact they are 'equal'.

[odin_dax]

Well, this thread is spiraling down pretty quickly due to derailing rooted in hate and bigotry. The topic is about same-sex marriage, not genetics, being gay or not being gay. I had hoped this would be a thoughtful discussion, but I guess I asked too much. I'm not going to address the issues directly, but to say that people are homosexuals because of choice is bullshit, and to say that it's genetic is bullshit. It's more complicated than that.

Hamster, I've lost all respect for you over this last week. The crap that you continue to write, your never ending words of bigotry, paranoia, racism and pride continually derail subjects and drive away intelligent discussion, maybe even members. Personally, I think your whole background story is full of shit, and I base that as being privy to member information as a mod. Maybe one day you'll grow the fuck up.

In general, I'm very disappointed with this thread.