Liquid nitrogen

[thief]

I know everyone says Thermite is a great way to open something that doesnt want to be opened (AND SURE it is... its cheap to) but if I wanted a chem that wont make such a bright light and smoke etc etc to open something that didnt want to be opened?
Maybe make it brittle enough that it would open with some force, would Liquid Nitrogen be a good option? Its very cheap but as for effectiveness... how does it fair.

Lets say... a mid size safe door. 1.5 - 2" thick with fireproofing inside to.

[7eleven mafia]

liquid nitrogen is not how it is as portrayed in movies, it takes a decent bit of time/liquid in order for anything to happen. if your not looking to get this done quickly it couldwork but there are no gurantees.

[thief]

Hmm... good point about the time. Any ideas on a time scale from normal to brittle? Well the amount needed is no problem because its very cheap (around 1.50 per ltr).

[Vein]

it would depend on the metal in the safe, metals typically conduct heat (or lack of it i would assume) very well, so it may work, however stainless steel is low on the list here:

http://www.missvickie.com/resources/cookware/heatconduc.html

you could in theory google the sciences behind it.

Find the type of metal, how brittle the safe will have to be for x amount of force to open it and then factor in how long it would take liquid nitrogen to make a (probably stainless steel) safe brittle enough to crack.

I say research some moar and find us the answer.

[thief]

"It should be noted in this case that where
the holding time has virtually no effect on the hardness of the steel, the resilience and bending
strength are rather heavily dependent on this parameter. An increase in holding time from
2 to 20 min will therefore lead to a better than threefold reduciton in resilience, causing
embrittlement of the steel under investigation. " V. G. Marchenko and A. Yu. Tsuprun

"...steel alloys high in nickel
are used in cryogenic applications because they are more resistant to
becoming brittle at very low temperatures" "many metals can become brittle at temperatures
well above that of liquid nitrogen (-196 deg C or -321 deg F). " Vince Calder - Environmental Earth Science Archive

Thats some of the stuff I can find... other than that its a bit harder. Google is good up to a point.

[Vein]

fair enough. if this wasn't just theoretical than it would be efficient enough to get some steel as thick and test the idea, would a chisel and hammer be the best tool for the job?

[Mr.A]

It sounds more practical to buy a big enough drill and bit to do the job....:cockblock

[thief]

It sounds more practical to buy a big enough drill and bit to do the job....:cockblock

And what happens then if your "drill and bit" meet Mr. cobalt-vanadium alloy along with his friend Mr. tungsten carbide chips? Your drill is no good then unless you get a diamond or tungsten-carbide drill-bits and then its gonna be loud as f@#k. Drilling is only good in some applications or if you know where the drill-points are, and if it has a glass relocker well... its a lot more difficult than just take a drill to the lock and fire away.
:crazy:

fair enough. if this wasn't just theoretical than it would be efficient enough to get some steel as thick and test the idea, would a chisel and hammer be the best tool for the job?

A chisel and hammer??? Are you serious??? A chisel and hammer... for 1.5inch steel. WOW. OK.

[Mr.A]

You said mid sized safe and the post seemed half hearted. So SWIM assumed we weren't talking about sophiscated safe's.

SWIM still thinks the drill would be more convenient.

Smashing the brittle metal would be loud too.

And yes there is more to it, like drill points. But hopefully before attempting to crack a safe, you have an idea of what your dealing with...particularly if your trying to do it quietly(which SWIM dont think is practical)

[thief]

You said mid sized safe and the post seemed half hearted. So SWIM assumed we weren't talking about sophiscated safe's.

SWIM still thinks the drill would be more convenient.

Smashing the brittle metal would be loud too.

And yes there is more to it, like drill points. But hopefully before attempting to crack a safe, you have an idea of what your dealing with...particularly if your trying to do it quietly(which SWIM dont think is practical)

Think about it... smashing it in 2 or 3 smacks would be loud for what 10 seconds... drilling on the other hand for 20min or more is a sustained loud noise.

There are no combination spindels, its around a Class TRTL-30 and is around 3 foot in hight. I dont know the make of the safe there are no markings.

[Mr.A]

aahhh there the details are!

There are a few problems that bother:

Your situation sounds wwaaayy to circumstantial...what if this, what if that.

If you have time to sit and soak this b%#@! in liquid nitrogen and not worry about detection then SWIM would assume you would be trying to get the goods out of the safe while someone is near (resident, guard)...then the noise of breaking would still be an issue.

Drilling still sounds more practical than Liquid Nitrogen. Which isn't always that easy to obtain in the amounts you would need to do the job.

[thief]

aahhh there the details are!

There are a few problems that bother:

Your situation sounds wwaaayy to circumstantial...what if this, what if that.

If you have time to sit and soak this b%#@! in liquid nitrogen and not worry about detection then SWIM would assume you would be trying to get the goods out of the safe while someone is near (resident, guard)...then the noise of breaking would still be an issue.

Drilling still sounds more practical than Liquid Nitrogen. Which isn't always that easy to obtain in the amounts you would need to do the job.

There is no "what if this, what if that" circumstance... the only circumstance was the noise so I dont know what your on about!!!
There is no guard or resident but loud drilling in the middle of the night tends to get peoples attetion, even if it is inside or a distance away. The fact is the less attetion the better.
And yes it is easy to get in large amounts.

[MrKant]

Your idea, while intriguing, I just don't see it working.
As the above posts state, the amount of time it would take the Liquid Nitrogen to actually take effect is far different than in the movies. Plus, there is realistically no easy way to apply it, ecspecially a safe. It's not as if you can lift the safe and dip in a bucket. Also, naturally, Hollywood has some true points, i.e. it is unbelievably hazardous to human skin, so wear gloves.

Finally, there is no realistic way to transport all the liquid nitrogen. Far to obtuse and noticeble. It's not as if you can just toss it in a water bottle.
Still a good idea, with some finetuning, and a fair amount of practice, I'm sure you could find a way around the kinks.

[7eleven mafia]

Your idea, while intriguing, I just don't see it working.
As the above posts state, the amount of time it would take the Liquid Nitrogen to actually take effect is far different than in the movies. Plus, there is realistically no easy way to apply it, ecspecially a safe. It's not as if you can lift the safe and dip in a bucket. Also, naturally, Hollywood has some true points, i.e. it is unbelievably hazardous to human skin, so wear gloves.

Finally, there is no realistic way to transport all the liquid nitrogen. Far to obtuse and noticeble. It's not as if you can just toss it in a water bottle.
Still a good idea, with some finetuning, and a fair amount of practice, I'm sure you could find a way around the kinks.

liquid nitrogen is only hazardous on the skin if exposed for a decent bit of time, due to your skin creating a barrier which protects you from it for a little while, and as far as transportation a silver plated flask is the best because it insulates, i would rather make liquid o2 than waste it on a safe.

[thief]

Your idea, while intriguing, I just don't see it working.
As the above posts state, the amount of time it would take the Liquid Nitrogen to actually take effect is far different than in the movies. Plus, there is realistically no easy way to apply it, ecspecially a safe. It's not as if you can lift the safe and dip in a bucket. Also, naturally, Hollywood has some true points, i.e. it is unbelievably hazardous to human skin, so wear gloves.

Finally, there is no realistic way to transport all the liquid nitrogen. Far to obtuse and noticeble. It's not as if you can just toss it in a water bottle.
Still a good idea, with some finetuning, and a fair amount of practice, I'm sure you could find a way around the kinks.

1. I never mentioned the movies.
2. I already said time was not a factor only noise.
3. Why is there no realistic why to apply it?
4. Why is there no realistic way to transport the liquid nitrogen?

[7eleven mafia]

4. Why is there no realistic way to transport the liquid nitrogen?

yes theres is, they are called fumes which are silver plated and insulated for the transportation of liquid nitrogen/dry ice or anything that is at increadibly low tempatures, however they are incredibly expensive

[MrKant]

yes theres is, they are called fumes which are silver plated and insulated for the transportation of liquid nitrogen/dry ice or anything that is at increadibly low tempatures, however they are incredibly expensive


That's what I was referring to. Unrealistically expensive, and just plain hard to carry around. From my knowledge, they only manufacture these in industrial size capacity, they don't have exactly have small pocket sized ones.

1. I never mentioned the movies.

I don't recall saying you did...

2. I already said time was not a factor only noise.

My sincerest apologies.

3. Why is there no realistic why to apply it?

Explain to me, please how you would apply it to the safe.

[thief]

Well, it can be poured on the top or if not bolted down tip over an poured on the door... keep applying as necessary... once ready, smash the door. Whats the problem?

[Mr.A]

They do have small containers for it. About a foot high and skinny so it could be transported...however its still impractical.

The amount it would take would be a heft amount, it doesn't seem worth it to carry that much and spend that much time on the project.

No clue on the science of it, and how much liquid you would need. 1.5-2'' sounds like a lot of metal to cool.


Theres plenty of reasons as to why this method hasn't been that popular. Unpractical.

[thief]

They do have small containers for it. About a foot high and skinny so it could be transported...however its still impractical.

The amount it would take would be a heft amount, it doesn't seem worth it to carry that much and spend that much time on the project.

No clue on the science of it, and how much liquid you would need. 1.5-2'' sounds like a lot of metal to cool.


Theres plenty of reasons as to why this method hasn't been that popular. Unpractical.

So the un-practacality of it is putting people off the idea, which leads me into the question of... what are people suggestions of a QUITE entry method to a steel door? Around 1.5" or less? Apart from Thermite because my guess is that it would destroy the contents inside.

A little of topic of lquid nitrogen but I once read some place that thermite can be mixed with clay or "play doh" to make it flex and bend to shapes... would this effect how hard it would be to ignite with magnesium ribbon?

[MrKant]

Apart from thermite, there is no realistic way to open a safe quitely, unless you want to do it the Ol' Fashioned way and learn how to safe crack, you know, listening to the clicks, all that jazz. Much more difficult than it looks, trust me.
And depending on the location and the quantity of the thermite, theres a chance that little no to damage will be done on the safes contents.

If you don't mind me asking, what brandname of safe is it?

[thief]

Apart from thermite, there is no realistic way to open a safe quitely, unless you want to do it the Ol' Fashioned way and learn how to safe crack, you know, listening to the clicks, all that jazz. Much more difficult than it looks, trust me.
And depending on the location and the quantity of the thermite, theres a chance that little no to damage will be done on the safes contents.

If you don't mind me asking, what brandname of safe is it?

Well, im not going to learn how to safe crack and I can well imagine thats its a hard skill to master. And besides... this has no combo wheel at the front just two keys that need to be turned to open... similar to a large ATM's "safe" at the back. There are no markings so I dont know the make or model number!
This project is bolted to the ground!
Anyone know about the Thermite and "play doh"??

[crazy white guy]

Okay, there have been some myths about thermite mentioned.

First, thermite is in NO WAY silent, not even fairly quiet. I've made thermite in it's simplest form being aluminum and iron oxide. Its not as loud as explosives but it does give off this loud hiss and crackle with intermittent explosive-sounding pops caused by air pockets in material being burned. This is loud enough that if you were standing beside someone, 10 ft. away from the reaction, you would have to speak loudly to be heard.

Thermite cannot be mixed with anything that contains water. Play-doh contains water. It also cannot be mixed with anything that would raise its volume by more than about 10%. After about 5%, the efficiency of the reaction goes downhill fast. The rate at which means 15% completely stops the reaction. There have been many different things mentioned to make thermite into a semi-mouldable substance. One was a glue that is mixed into the thermite, the methyl alcohol that makes the glue soft evaporates to leave a hard, flammable cake that makes up only a small fraction of the overall mass/volume.

Another one was sulfur to make it powdery and cake-like rather than a fine powder and a highly flammable petroleum product. It became a very thick paste. This is formed to the final shape and coated with a ceramic shell. The shell does the same thing as the flower pot that most people use.

All of these have only been tested by amateur chemists so take it with a grain of salt.

The US military uses sulfur and a few heavy metals in their thermite, I don't know if they have a easy use thermite developed apart from their stick-and-forget ones.

[thief]

Some nice insights CWG.

[Yafmot]

First the good news.
Most industrial gas suppliers will fill a STAINLESS Thermos bottle for cheap. Also, you can occasionally find small (<5 gal) stainless dewars on various industrial equipment websites for fairly little cash. Lab-X is also a good place to look.

Now the bad news. If the mass you have to chill is fairly high, It'll take at LEAST five gallons to chill it sufficiently for cryogenic embrittlement. With LN2, you can cool a small mass WAY down, but for something like the wall of a high quality safe, you'd need a ton of the shit. It's great for small mechanisms like padlocks & even some deadbolts, but to bring a safe down to where even part of it will shatter, you'd just about have to dunk the whole thing in a tank of it.

Thief, are you sure you're not talking about one of those Homak gun lockers? They have several models with two barrel locks on them. you wouldn't need much more than a can opener to get into one of those.

[iceniner]

Another thing is that you're very likely these days to run into cryo-treated steel. Whether or not that can become brittle I don't know...

[crazy white guy]

Some of this will be re-stating:

Thermite:

Pro:
can cut through certain things very quickly and without large/expensive tools

Cons:
-Its loud. I'd say that the amount of thermite that you would use to cut in half a 2" bar stock of mild steel thats been surfaces hardened would be about as loud as someone shouting to some one 50M away.
-It can only cut through the more mild materials unless the thing your cutting is very thin/small diameter. The reason that this is bad is that you can cut those with more simple means. An example would be a padlock made out of hardened stainless steel. You can expect the bar to be 1/2 inch or smaller and hardened. This would take between 1 and 5 min to cut through with a hack saw. That is quiet and fairly quick. To defeat that lock with thermite would take about 1-3 minutes including setup and waiting for the reaction to stop completely. That would be loud, bright and would need you to carry the thermite and something to light it with, along with a way to block the light if that is needed.

Liquid nitrogen/freon:

Pros:
can cut through some things that would normally be impossible to cut through like drill bit killing sheet in safes.

Cons:
-It takes a lot of liquid N2 to freeze anything of any size. Metal takes a lot longer since it conducts heat very well. If theres anything around what your cutting that would act like a heatsink (concrete, wood, more metal) it would render this method extremely ineffective.
-Since compressed N2 is under a high pressure, it needs to be in an expensive and heavy pressure vessel. If you are carrying one, only 1/6 of the weight that your carrying will be the actual N2. with thermite, 3/4 will be the actual thermite.
- You need a lot of it and a lot of time to have it be effective. Watch the myth busters episode about it defeating locks to see how long it really takes.

What most people say and why its not true:

"You can just have a little thermite device made to suit all of your needs"

In some ways this is true, you can make one decide for cutting flush to a vertical surface, one for cutting down unto a horizontal surfact, ect. But since you need quite a bit of thermite to actually cut through the objective, you will need to invest in making the devices, and carry them to your objective. In theory you can. But in pracice, you will generally have to run/jump/climb with all your gear. try climbing a fence with a (10lb) flower pot full of sand and you will understand what im talking about.

"you can drive your car right up to the lock and use that as cover while you cut"

Both methods are fairly loud, this is a perfect world scenario and a car in an area sitting for more than 5 min where the general public shouldn't be is suspicious.

also, liquid nitrogen in chemical terms is N2(aq), not LN2 or just N2

[Striker]

where can i buy it, do i need a permit, how long have i got to use it before it warms up?

[Th0r]

They keep fuckloads in hospitals.

[crazy white guy]

where can i buy it, do i need a permit, how long have i got to use it before it warms up?

You can buy it at a lot of places, Chemical supply depots, anywhere that services industrial cooling units. Most countries dont need permite, but some places require a reason for buying it. The companies selling it do that so they dont get the fallout from someone abusing it. As long as its kept in a very high pressure rated vessel, you can keep it for weeks. Nitrogen, like H2 will bleed like a motherfucker, so keep that in mind.

[Striker]

You can buy it at a lot of places, Chemical supply depots, anywhere that services industrial cooling units. Most countries dont need permite, but some places require a reason for buying it. The companies selling it do that so they dont get the fallout from someone abusing it. As long as its kept in a very high pressure rated vessel, you can keep it for weeks. Nitrogen, like H2 will bleed like a motherfucker, so keep that in mind.

good to know. thnx crazy white guy.

what kind of metals can be shattered with this stuff?

[digermane]

I'm not sure if this is considered raising the dead (if it is, feel free to delete the post) but reading this I just had to comment.

To freeze the safe that would require total immersion for at least 20 minutes. People are saying 5 gallons pouring it over the safe... totally off. I'd be surprised if 50 gallons would be enough for that. Steel doesn't become glass very easily. Maybe with an oxy-acetylene torch and a vat of LH2....

7eleven- You are very very very wrong about LN2 being dangerous only with extended exposure. Feel free to inspect the numerous scars I have on my hands from tiny droplets splashing and me taking more than a tenth of a second to shake them off if you doubt me. Also he would want a dewar to hold the LN2, however larger closed top ones can be rather heavy.

also, liquid nitrogen in chemical terms is N2(aq), not LN2 or just N2
N2 is correct, LN2 is a common abbreviation for N2(l) which is also correct and more specific. N2(aq) is very wrong as that refers to nitrogen molecules that have been solvated in water, NOT the liquid phase of nitrogen.

Also, you should keep in mind that nitrogen is actually an asphyxiant, so if you don't use it in a well ventilated area you could suffocate. It's definitely not as safe as people make it out to be.

[Æhµ]

This might be of interest to you, years ago I picked up a largish tank of liquid nitrogen from off a utility pole, where it was (I assume) being used to cool a large transformer. It took two of us to get it down, me and a friend stumbled across a utility truck a few days earlier and picked up all these tools which is what gave us the idea to go after one of the tanks.

I ended up selling the tank (minus contents) to a scrap metal dealer for a few hundred bucks. I wouldn't waste my time with that ever again. I've seen other tanks on the ground near underground cables but read those are only pressurized to keep moisture out of the line. It's a LOT of work to remove one of them.