Does the Almighty Exist?

[Mr.A]

Pretty simple start on this thread, just like the name in the title do you think a higher power exists?

I do.

[thief]

Define "Higher power"

[odin_dax]

Define "Higher power"

In this context, I assume, a non-human, supernatural, intelligent being that created the universe and all life within it.

[Th0r]

I'd like to believe that a being created the Universe and was responsible for the birth and creation of man and the animals that inhabit this planet. However I just don't see it. Also others are entitled to their views and I'm not going to debate or discriminate against people who believe in 'The Almighty' or as I interpret it a God.

This will probably be the last thing I post in this thread unless something else prompts me to post in this thread, but you asked for my views and here you have them.

[thief]

But then comes the question Th0r... who created that being?

[icharianchem]

in any debate about the creation (or ..happening) of the world you run out of end points. Either God exists and made it or nothing for some unknown reason turned into some thing.

[.VX]

Who knows ...

[Th0r]

But then comes the question Th0r... who created that being?

I think that's a very good question, although as I said...

I'd like to believe that there is an almost Supernatural, all powerful force or being but quite frankly I can't see it.

[odin_dax]

The question of who created God, or, rather, where did He come from, is meaningless. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter in this discussion. He exists or He doesn't. If He does, well, is simple. If He doesn't, it just asks more question.

Like VX said, who cares? One way or the other, we're all going to find out. Even "immortality" has to end since the universe will end in the Big Crunch, so you ARE going to die.

I don't think religion or spirituality came from a fear of death. There are many people that face death head on, accept it and end life beautifully. Sure, the average young person doesn't want to die, and why should anyone want to die or accept death at 20 when they can do it by the time their 70 or 80?

And like ichar said, we're going to run out of end points. It is foolish to think that this discussion would end in an answer.

I think we should embrace the spirit of the first post by just answering how we feel about the subject, not by typing up posts that can lead to yet another endless back-and-forth thread on religion/spirituality.

:cool1:

[Day_N_Night]

I wish i could beleive in some sort of allmighty being but like th0r i just can't "feel" it. I wish i did. Even though i know if i did it'd probably be a lie there's that reassurance facture.

Rather, i take a neutral (Agnostic) stance on this issue. In regards to god im skeptical but oddly enough i beleive in the supernatural (Spirits and thats sort of thing) to a certain extent.

[Pimpin4Life30]

Religion was created to have order among the people. Thats my opinion. Pretty much like a big story that just keeps getting bigger, whats it called? Maybe a Tall tale?

[redjoker]

In before technological singularity.

[odin_dax]

Religion was created to have order among the people. Thats my opinion. Pretty much like a big story that just keeps getting bigger, whats it called? Maybe a Tall tale?

Religion and spirituality aren't synonymous though.

[REL0AD]

I'm unsure on what to believe to be honest.

[Mr.A]

@Odin: Agreed, but don't you think they should be?

[DoctaD]

Until I see some sort of proof I'm on the fence.

[Mr.A]

I follow no world religions that I know of and still firmly believe God exists.

I disagree with you DoctaD only because of what I have felt myself.

Looking back at when I would've agreed with you, I understand exactly why as to why you feel that way.

I'm sorry I can't show you any proof, but I have a funny feeling that if I were able to speak with you or anybody in person I would be able to convince them to what I believe is the truth.

The votes are tied this is looking fun!

*Grabs himself and Odin some popcorn*:popcorn:

[.VX]

I believe that there is much more beyond what we can see, but not necessarily a God.

[redjoker]

For all you fence riders or people struggling with something to believe in look up technological singularity. At least that is something with you can really count on. Give you the hope you need to go on or something. Knowing that you are really fucking close to possibly witnessing the greatest accomplishment of man. The next step in evolution.

[RoundElephant]

I agree with Pimpin, mostly. I believe if there is a god there is no way to prove his existence, so why devote your life to something that may or may not exist?

[odin_dax]

I agree with Pimpin, mostly. I believe if there is a god there is no way to prove his existence, so why devote your life to something that may or may not exist?

Well, that logic just begs the question, why not devote life to something that may or may not exist?

[RoundElephant]

Well, that logic just begs the question, why not devote life to something that may or may not exist?

Because then you feel bad every time you do a bad thing, like masturbate.

[odin_dax]

Because then you feel bad every time you do a bad thing, like masturbate.

Ah, but again, would you not feel bad after taking certain actions if you didn't believe in a god?

(Masturbation isn't a sin according to some interpretations, or contrary to majority dogma - whichever is more correct. I can't find it in the Bible...)

[Mr.A]

I had never heard of the term technological singularity until I read your post but for the entire concept of it I see only one problem.

The earth is comparably young to the age of the universe. For anybody paying attention that would mean that there are probably many more planets out in space that are incredible similar and older than Earth. Similar also in the regard that those worlds have much older intelligent races of beings out there.

My problem is simple. If there is to be a technological singularity, an explosion in technoligical capabilities and an explosion in the speed of rate of increasing technoligical capabilities, then why haven't these theoretical super beings hit us yet. Rather, reached us yet with their awesome future unimaginable technoligical capabilities?

Makes me want to have more faith that there is a God. :footinmou

[Vein]

I think everything can be explained mathematically through measurements of energy and mass...however we can't measure all the dimensions. Even if we had a sophisticated computer, the balance of the universe is ever changing and we couldn't measure everything at once.

...:duh:

[Day_N_Night]

My problem is simple. If there is to be a technological singularity, an explosion in technoligical capabilities and an explosion in the speed of rate of increasing technoligical capabilities, then why haven't these theoretical super beings hit us yet. Rather, reached us yet with their awesome future unimaginable technoligical capabilities?

On the topic, i've read that if an advanced civilization wanted to explore the universe to search for other intellegent life or what have you they wouldnt send a Space Ship with a Captain and Crew to comb the universe for life. Instead they would build a Robot which then would go on a distant moon, asteroid,planet etc and replicate itself a million times over and then those replicas would go onto other moons and so on until "The Whole Universe" had one of these self replicating robots populating every corner of it to relay back to the mother civilization if there is life there and what condition it is in etc.

With that said , the Universe is large beyound perception and even at the dawn of a civilizations attempts to have the entire univers explored it would could conceivably take billions of years to reach earth at all, perhaps more. And still yet its quite possible they have reached us and have not made contact purpousely but instead only observe us or interfere with us sparingly(which i beleive is the case).

Sorry for Hi-Jacking this threads topic at-hand guys

[.VX]

And still yet its quite possible they have reached us and have not made contact purpousely but instead only observe us or interfere with us sparingly(which i beleive is the case).


I agree with this. And if science's current theory that nothin' can go faster than the maximum speed of light is correct, then there's always other possibilities for how they could get here;like teleportation, or just freeze themselves until they're here.

I have a question for those of you who believe in a God; although I don't doubt that you've experienced something beyond what we can see, or touch, that has made you believe in God, can you really be sure that it was God who you felt and not just something?

[odin_dax]

Back to aliens? Come on, stay on topic. We have an aliens thread already.

:argue:


@.VX, how can we be sure that is wasn't? Better yet, how can someone who doesn't believe in a god be sure that some existential experience he has felt isn't God? Further, there really is no reason for any spiritual and/or religious person to "cast their pearls before swine" here. You've made it quite well known your position on the matter, and for anyone to put out his beliefs for atheists and skeptics to attack minimalizes any experience, is quite disrespectful and insulting, and stupid on the part of the pearl caster. :hitwithro

[icharianchem]

if you can fully understand your god then your god is only as big as you. Kinda defeats the purpose wouldnt you say?

[redjoker]

For all those people out there struggling to figure out what religion is true just do what I do and look for the origin. Once you find the origin you'll be able to determine if its legit, or fucking awesome that more than a billion people are dumb enough to believe its real. When some christian with a stick up their ass condescendingly asks you how YOU think the universe began and starts tearing apart of your theories with the big 'what if' and 'most likely not' they need to be reminded that you weren't fucking here when it all started so you really don't have enough information at the moment to proceed. You should also mention that you are quite fucking positive a couple of inbred jews who could barely understand the concept of agriculture sure as fuck weren't around at the beginning of time either. I personally think that Christianity is intellectual laziness and cowardice. That's saying a lot considering I'm the most paranoid and self-loathing individual that I know of. I'm not saying that intelligent design isn't possible. I don't know for sure what happened. I'm just positive that the christian/jew/muslim/hindu/etc versions of whats really going on are complete bullshit.

[removed off-topic bit]

I don't know all the answers to the riddles, however I'm still smart enough know when something is obviously wrong. I know we need a smarter mind if we ever hope to solve any of these problems. If you're really stressed about finding your purpose/the meaning of life try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wS5xOZ7Rq8.

[odin_dax]

For all those people out there struggling to figure out what religion is true just do what I do and look for the origin. Once you find the origin you'll be able to determine if its legit, or fucking awesome that more than a billion people are dumb enough to believe its real. When some christian with a stick up their ass condescendingly asks you how YOU think the universe began and starts tearing apart of your theories with the big 'what if' and 'most likely not' they need to be reminded that you weren't fucking here when it all started so you really don't have enough information at the moment to proceed. You should also mention that you are quite fucking positive a couple of inbred jews who could barely understand the concept of agriculture sure as fuck weren't around at the beginning of time either. I personally think that Christianity is intellectual laziness and cowardice. That's saying a lot considering I'm the most paranoid and self-loathing individual that I know of. I'm not saying that intelligent design isn't possible. I don't know for sure what happened. I'm just positive that the christian/jew/muslim/hindu/etc versions of whats really going on are complete bullshit.

Geez, a lot of those sentences have nothing to do with the others...

I'll just take what you said though, that you weren't there. Now I'll ask, how the fuck do you know that the Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu/etc religions are complete bullshit if you weren't there?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that your logic doesn't give you any solid footing to make a claim either way, so I don't know why, even after you admitted anyone can say "I/You weren't there", that you make a claim you know one way or the other.

[icharianchem]

wow that was unhelpful and insulting. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

[icharianchem]

and if you think the Jews have no concept of agriculture have a look @ modern Isreal. Or even the laws the "almighty" gave concering crops. Actually pretty fucking sound. (Im completing my Horticulture degree FYI, so I know better than you, guaran-fucking-teed )

[RoundElephant]

Ah, but again, would you not feel bad after taking certain actions if you didn't believe in a god?

(Masturbation isn't a sin according to some interpretations, or contrary to majority dogma - whichever is more correct. I can't find it in the Bible...)

it's lust. And I don't fell bad now because I don't believe in God.

[redjoker]

Geez, a lot of those sentences have nothing to do with the others... Geez you might wanna reread it a few more times to let it soak in a little better.

I'll just take what you said though, that you weren't there. Now I'll ask, how the fuck you do you know that the Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu/etc religions are complete bullshit if you weren't there? Science my boy, science. Notice that I never said intelligent design wasn't possible. However, I do not believe their hocus pocus version of how the universe and life began and i believe that their belief in their own special little afterlife is quite laughable. Okay now that were on the same page you'll realize that I was talking about the bullshit story fed to us by their ever evolving and warping books and teachings. Most bible thumpers believe, according to the good book, that the world is around 10,000 or so years old and up until very recently considered the notion of evolution blasphemy. If you take a look at any countdown to singularity chart that is right around the time the major event known as agriculture happened. Or you can Wikipedia agriculture for more info on what was going on during God's creation. For the horticulturist, hold on, because I'm about to masturbate your mind with this explanation. So the Christians believe the first humans were here about 10k ago, that there were two of them, and that they created the rest of man somehow without addressing the big inbreeding question. The reality is 10,000 years ago you only have some pretty ignorant people that are dealing with the mindfuck of planting a garden. Notice how that didn't have anything to do with modern day Israel, your vast knowledge of horticulture, or not being around when adam and eve were here to verify that their version of creation is a bunch of bologna. Now see how you've wasted a bunch of everyone's time and precious space on this forum by missing the point of my post?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that your logic doesn't give you any solid footing to make a claim either way, so I don't know why, even after you admitted anyone can say "I/You weren't there", that you make a claim you know one way or the other. Should I really reply to this or is this just another example of waste?

I normally wouldn't respond to this kind of ignorance but I kind of feel the need to retaliate against the modification of my posts. Especially when they question alien life forms. Anyone who isn't biased could see that aliens have a great amount of importance in many religions, in that their very existence will make or can break their religion. Apparently someone is making decisions based on emotions instead of good judgment so I wouldn't be at all surprised if this gets slashed.

[icharianchem]

it's lust. And I don't fell bad now because I don't believe in God.

Masturbation was the cause of the sin of Onan. He masturbated so his brothers wife wouldnt bare his children for one reason or another god found this displeasing and struck him dead. .... It was cuz he was being a dick to his dead brother not cuz he was getting off

[RoundElephant]

Masturbation was the cause of the sin of Onan. He masturbated so his brothers wife wouldnt bare his children for one reason or another god found this displeasing and struck him dead. .... It was cuz he was being a dick to his dead brother not cuz he was getting off

Now days people don't stare at a wall and jack off. They watch porno, whilst doing this they are committing the sin of lust.

[odin_dax]

Geez you might wanna reread it a few more times to let it soak in a little better.

Science my boy, science. Notice that I never said intelligent design wasn't possible. However, I do not believe their hocus pocus version of how the universe and life began and i believe that their belief in their own special little afterlife is quite laughable. Okay now that were on the same page you'll realize that I was talking about the bullshit story fed to us by their ever evolving and warping books and teachings. Most bible thumpers believe, according to the good book, that the world is around 10,000 or so years old and up until very recently considered the notion of evolution blasphemy. If you take a look at any countdown to singularity chart that is right around the time the major event known as agriculture happened. Or you can Wikipedia agriculture for more info on what was going on during God's creation. For the horticulturist, hold on, because I'm about to masturbate your mind with this explanation. So the Christians believe the first humans were here about 10k ago, that there were two of them, and that they created the rest of man somehow without addressing the big inbreeding question. The reality is 10,000 years ago you only have some pretty ignorant people that are dealing with the mindfuck of planting a garden. Notice how that didn't have anything to do with modern day Israel, your vast knowledge of horticulture, or not being around when adam and eve were here to verify that their version of creation is a bunch of bologna. Now see how you've wasted a bunch of everyone's time and precious space on this forum by missing the point of my post?

Should I really reply to this or is this just another example of waste?

I normally wouldn't respond to this kind of ignorance but I kind of feel the need to retaliate against the modification of my posts. Especially when they question alien life forms. Anyone who isn't biased could see that aliens have a great amount of importance in many religions, in that their very existence will make or can break their religion. Apparently someone is making decisions based on emotions instead of good judgment so I wouldn't be at all surprised if this gets slashed.

Well, your unwarranted condescending attitude aside, let me return the favor of educating your ignorant mind. It's a common misinterpretation that "adam" refers to a single person. "Adam" in the ancient language meant "man" - ALL humankind. Secondly, nowhere in the Bible does it say the earth is 10,000 years old. In fact, an age isn't given. No one with a basic education thinks the earth is 10,000 years old. Even if they did, so what? The Bible doesn't say that, so your supposed scientific deduction is based on a false premise, and it's quite clearly a flawed conclusion and absolutely doesn't do a thing for your position that religion is hocus pocus. And you haven't made any undeniable proof for any other religion. Everything based on your false premise is irrelevant.

Again, to avoid unnecessary back-and-forth from third parties, I'm merely pointing out your deeply flawed statements. The fact that you casually toss mine aside without regard or direct response shows your weakness in fact and logic. I'm not trying to be offensive, and you can believe whatever you want, I don't care, but don't for a second claim to be the know-all of religion when you're clearly not.

And, finally, your aliens speech. Well, this isn't about aliens, and you know damn well that you didn't related aliens to religion. There is no evidence for aliens visiting earth or even existing, and most closely studied "alien" paintings and such were proven to be not related to aliens or visitation. I guess you overlooked that in your research on religions.

Now, if you have a problem with a mod, then I would suggest sending that mod or another mod/admin a message of complaint. A public rouse to claim intelligent reasoning and challenge another based on false reality is a pretty good sign of fallacious thinking. I think you're the one trying to appeal to emotion, amongst other things. Please keep the hate to a minimum. Thanks.

[redjoker]

Well, your unwarranted condescending attitude aside, let me return the favor of educating your ignorant mind.If you weren't a mod I'd mark you off as a troll trying to be funny.

It's a common misinterpretation that "adam" refers to a single person. "Adam" in the ancient language meant "man" - ALL humankind. Up until recently that hasn't been what the church teaches. Even now most Christians believe that adam was 1 person and eve was 1 person and that they started the human race along with many of the other retarded miracles the bible describes. Your bible was written by men living in the time when the world was flat and maggots came from rotten meat. A time when thunder meant god was angry or something. I like to consider a religion's origins when determining the motives and accuracy of its teachings. Trust me, what you are saying is all new age crap that only proves how often the church likes to make a 'change of convenience' in order to get a newer younger audience. Most conservative/older Christians would consider you lukewarm follower and tell you you're going to hell. I'm just telling you know matter how often you patch it up or how pretty you try to make it Christianity is still a bunch of hocus pocus.

Secondly, nowhere in the Bible does it say the earth is 10,000 years old. In fact, an age isn't given. No one with a basic education thinks the earth is 10,000 years old. Even if they did, so what? The Bible doesn't say that, so your supposed scientific deduction is based on a false premise, and it's quite clearly a flawed conclusion and absolutely doesn't do a thing for your position that religion is hocus pocus. I've heard many a red faced balding preacher scream at his pulpit, that if you count up the age of all the people since adam and you add today's date you should be close to how old the earth is. This is still actually quite a common belief for many Christians and it used to be a 'fact' according to many denominations. Just because your particular group evolved into something that seems more hip with today's crowd doesn't mean its the truth. At the core its still just a bunch of hocus pocus. Notice how I never said all Christians or most Christians believe this as of today so please leave the straw man in the field.

And you haven't made any undeniable proof for any other religion. Everything based on your false premise is irrelevant. Why does it matter? Nothing else has been brought up. Seeing as how you don't even know your own religion well I don't think it would make a difference talking about another religion.

Again, to avoid unnecessary back-and-forth from third parties, I'm merely pointing out your deeply flawed statements. The fact that you casually toss mine aside without regard or direct response shows your weakness in fact and logic. I'm not trying to be offensive, and you can believe whatever you want, I don't care, but don't for a second claim to be the know-all of religion when you're clearly not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man. The position I've held on the subject the entire time is that I do not know 'exactly' how the universe began. This doesn't mean that I can't use logic to deduce that flying raisins didn't create the universe and pump the life blood of raisin jizz into our veins to give us life. Isn't that just mind blowing how it doesn't at all mean that I have ever hinted to be anything near all knowing or that I know how the universe began? Not knowing exactly how something is made != Knowing how its not made.

And, finally, your aliens speech. Well, this isn't about aliens, and you know damn well that you didn't related aliens to religion. I guess we'll never know since I'm not allowed to talk about aliens.

There is no evidence for aliens visiting earth or even existing, and most closely studied "alien" paintings and such were proven to be not related to aliens or visitation. I guess you overlooked that in your research on religions. Now who is the hypocrite? Are mods the only ones allowed to talk about aliens or determine whether or not they are real or what?

Now, if you have a problem with a mod, then I would suggest sending that mod or another mod/admin a message of complaint. A public rouse to claim intelligent reasoning and challenge another based on false reality is a pretty good sign of fallacious thinking. I think you're the one trying to appeal to emotion, amongst other things. Please keep the hate to a minimum. Thanks. Yes I'm the raging admin editing posts that conflict with my beliefs and then replacing them with what I think others should be believing.

[Day_N_Night]

Odin_Dax
Well, your unwarranted condescending attitude aside, let me return the favor of educating your ignorant mind. It's a common misinterpretation that "adam" refers to a single person. "Adam" in the ancient language meant "man" - ALL humankind.

Out of curiousity which ancient language are you refering to? Im pretty sure your claim has merit though,, because in (Modern) Turkish "Adam" means "Man". Turkish is a language which though itself not Semitic(Middle Eastern), has many Arabic loan words mainly from Arabic itself but also from Persian and other languages which have quite abit of Arabic loan words(Mostly Relegious terms)


Odin_Dax

Secondly, nowhere in the Bible does it say the earth is 10,000 years old. In fact, an age isn't given. No one with a basic education thinks the earth is 10,000 years old. Even if they did, so what? The Bible doesn't say that, so your supposed scientific deduction is based on a false premise, and it's quite clearly a flawed conclusion and absolutely doesn't do a thing for your position that religion is hocus pocus. And you haven't made any undeniable proof for any other religion. Everything based on your false premise is irrelevant.



Actually, Young-Earth Creationists (Whom beleive the earth to beleive around 6000 years old i beleive) use clues in the bible to come to this conclusion.If you dont beleive this people who i speak of actually beleive this just give them a google search and that should clear things up.

Here, Let me elaborate.
In Genesis the bible gives a genealogy from Adam and Eve all the way to Noah, I think. It gives the ages of each person, which you can add up.

After Noah I think they use a mix of geneology, and the dates of historic events to figure how many years passed from Noah to Jesus.


The following should give you a rough idea on how some Creationists peace together the age of the earth using the bible:

Adam age 930 died + 126 years, Seth dead 14 years,
1056 = Year Noah born, 3010 BCE.
0600 = 1656 flood year. Gen.7:6,
0000 = 0000 350 years = 2006 Noah dies, Gen.9:28,29
0222 = 1878 Terah born.
0205 = 2083 Terah dies, Gen.11:32,
000000 Year 427 after flood.
0000 = 0000 Abraham age 75, has covenant.
0025 = 2108 Isaac born, Gen.21:5,
0075 = 2183 Abraham dies, Gen.25:7,9. Matt.1:1-17;
000000 Year 527 after flood.
0180 = 2288 Isaac dies, Gen.35:28,29;
000000 Year 632 after flood.
0010 = 2298 Jacob age 130, Gen.47:9,11, in Egypt.
000000 year 642 years after flood.
0017 = 2315 Jacob dies, Gen.47:28.
000000 year 659 years after flood.
0053 = 2368 Joseph dies, Gen.50:26.
000000 year 712 years after flood.
0430 = 2513 Moses Exo.7:7,12:41,Gal.3:16-26.
000000 year 857 years after flood.
0040 = 2553 Moses dies, Deut.34:7,Acts 7:1-60.
000000 Year 897 years after flood.
0001 = 2554 Joshua. Josh,4:19, 5:6,10,12;
0300 = 2854 Judges 10:3, 11:26 [ 301 + 89 ].
000000 Year 1198 years after flood.
0089 = 2943 Judges [ 18, 6, 7, 10, 8, 40 ];
0020 = 2963 Acts 13:20,21, Samuel and Saul 14th year.
000000 Year 1307 after flood, 450 years after Exodus.
0020 = 2983 Samuel dies and Saul has 6 more years.
000000 Year 1327 after flood, Samuel dies, 1Sam.25:1.
0006 = 2989 David is king after Saul dies, 1077 BCE.
000000 Year 1333 after flood, Saul dies, 1077 BCE.
0040 = 3029 David dies, in 4 years Solomon's temple.
000000 Year 1373 after flood, David dies, 1037 BCE
0004 = 3033 1Ki.6:1, Solomon began temple after law.
000000 Year 1377 after flood,
0036 = 3069 Solomon dies, 1Ki.11:42, 997 BCE.
000000 Year 1413 years after flood.
0391 = 3460 1804 years after flood, Judah kings end.
3460 = Years of real time and 2009 CE = year 6075.
0606 + 2009 CE = Judah kings end 2615 years ago.

[Mr.A]

WHOA WHOA WHOA, take it easy guys, this isn't the flame lounge. Animosity, isn't supposed to be tolerated outside of that by mods. I'm not gunna bother citing my source for all the flame bs because hopefully anybody can see it.:rant:
Sorry for the rant.

I created this thread not looking for answers myself, rather to see if it was capable for people to work together to learn something.This thread could prove to be a good learning tool for other things besides whether or not God exists.

I'll tell you this from what I've learned, truth is what you should be searching for and you should be chomping at the bit to recognize truth. Truth implies logic to me and with logical reason it seems that there must be something greater than all this. Example of what I'm talking about is based on simple logic, with your idea of a big bang occuring, something existed before hand, or with our idea of multiverses or separate dimensions there is something that has to exist outside of our universe. Whether that something is God or not I think should be irrelevant.

Please don't get this thread locked, I know it could prove useful to all, but only if we can maintain a respectful, logical balance in our arguments.

In-a-nutshell, :bryce:

jk, jk.:icon16:

Logically speaking, since that is what my entire post seems to revolve around, I don't agree with any religion that I've ever heard of. Simply because of the question, if a perfect religion were to exist already, don't you think the world as a whole would have already found God and that there would be peace on earth and evil would not exist?

Keep trying guys, I got faith in you! :You_Rock_

[redjoker]

Does it not seem logical then to say that since we weren't here for the beginning and don't know all the variables, we don't know exactly how it all started? From that reasoning, is it not reasonable to say that the existence of a higher being at the time is only a possibility? I am a man of science. I'm also a man who asks himself too many questions. Believing the teachings of most the popular religions requires faith. Faith is at the very core of these religions. Believing without knowing. Believing even though there are other possibilities.

Try to think of it from this scenario because its pretty much the same thing without the controversy:
A boy is standing in front of a box with his best friend. He has never seen this box before. His friend tells him that there is garbage in the chest and that it should be thrown out without opening to avoid causing any kind of a stink. Following most of popular religions require that the boy believe there is garbage in the chest and throw it away without ever opening it and truly seeing for himself what is really inside of it. I'm simply saying that there might be garbage in the chest, but that there also might not be garbage in there. I'm also mentioning that your friend is a pathological liar about this kind of stuff and that there are other clues around you that suggest otherwise.

Things like this have a way of working themselves out. Singularity is near. To me the beginning of us is the first time an early man looked up at the starts and asked himself in his primitive, retarded mind, "what the fuck am I doing here?" and singularity is the end of us as we know it. I have no clue what is waiting on the other side of the door for us. My personal belief is that our reality is simply the result of a fork bomb on a cosmic Linux box.

[Mr.A]

Nice post, I enjoyed it.

See, thats one of the problems with all religions, they cannot prove God's existance.

Redjoker, I think people like you exist because they feel like their entire lives they've been lied to about what to beleive, creating a alot of doubt. With myself its not about a religion its about the simple question with the simple answer. Does God exist. Yes. I answer because its something about the whole jist of it all, a feeling you could call it. Not very scientific I'm aware but at the moment its the best I got. Its a feeling maybe because I cannot explain everything, I do not think its impossible to be able to explain everything, its more like I'm just not able to yet. However, when I can, I know I'll be writing and speaking about it. So stay tuned for that.

^this is how I would hope everyone would view their relationship with God.

The feeling(call it faith that God exist if you want), I have exist because...well, lets start with this:

The world(universe, existance, conciousness, wtf ever makes you feel comfortable) only seems to revolve around two absolute truths to me. Rightousness and Evil. Niceness and Hatefulness. White and Black. Yin and Yang. Light and Dark. God and Satan. All of those things are the same in my eyes, they are all different interpretations of Good and Evil. With this perspective I know and realize Good always ends up beating Evil, but why does it still exist? I'm not so sure on one definitive answer.

It seems the world is made up of a natural progression of things, cells start as one and then divide to many. They grow, basically. We, as human beings, like to progress(grow). Particles like to collect in space. Things like you say, like to singularize(if thats a word), simply put. Everything likes collect, it grows or "matures" to simply, to collect.

It seems to me that religion(relationship with God) is desire to mature, or to grow, a search for answers to fill the voids in our minds that we so desperately need for some reason. This search is probably shared with other beings similar to our age and understanding of the world around us IMO.

To me, the answers of if God exist isn't really all that important anymore simply because it shouldn't be.

From my obversations of my own mind and own beleifs on what few things I have figured out to be absolute truths(see above) we are to grow, we are to be a part in something large, we have an undying taste for knowledge to ... idk maybe ascend to another piece of existance, maybe be able to be a shining example of how Good always beats the bad. The answer I'm sure has little significance.

I believe that something is greater than this(this implying the universe) simply because it feels right.

Sorry for any grammatical errors or spelling mistakes I was on a roll and wasn't paying particular attention and am too lazy to go back and correct it all ATM.

Thanks for inspiring me red.

[odin_dax]

If you weren't a mod I'd mark you off as a troll trying to be funny.

Your title says it all.


Up until recently that hasn't been what the church teaches. Even now most Christians believe that adam was 1 person and eve was 1 person and that they started the human race along with many of the other retarded miracles the bible describes. Your bible was written by men living in the time when the world was flat and maggots came from rotten meat. A time when thunder meant god was angry or something. I like to consider a religion's origins when determining the motives and accuracy of its teachings. Trust me, what you are saying is all new age crap that only proves how often the church likes to make a 'change of convenience' in order to get a newer younger audience. Most conservative/older Christians would consider you lukewarm follower and tell you you're going to hell. I'm just telling you know matter how often you patch it up or how pretty you try to make it Christianity is still a bunch of hocus pocus.

Over thousands of years, facts do get lost. I can't speak for every church in every denomination, so I don't know what was preached. The facts were always there, but things also got mistranslated/misinterpreted. You can say whatever you want, but the original meaning was always there.
Also, most ancients, contrary to popular belief, knew the earth was round.
The fact that you like to study origins puzzles me when you come to so many incorrect conclusions, but I'm not surprised you'd continue to use well known false statements and then use those as a basis of an argument.

I've heard many a red faced balding preacher scream at his pulpit, that if you count up the age of all the people since adam and you add today's date you should be close to how old the earth is. This is still actually quite a common belief for many Christians and it used to be a 'fact' according to many denominations. Just because your particular group evolved into something that seems more hip with today's crowd doesn't mean its the truth. At the core its still just a bunch of hocus pocus. Notice how I never said all Christians or most Christians believe this as of today so please leave the straw man in the field.

My spirituality is my own. I don't belong to any "group." The fact that people wrongly teach the Bible is irrelevant to the facts at a time of its origin.

Why does it matter? Nothing else has been brought up. Seeing as how you don't even know your own religion well I don't think it would make a difference talking about another religion.

Well, it's quite obvious I know more about my religion than you do about mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man. The position I've held on the subject the entire time is that I do not know 'exactly' how the universe began. This doesn't mean that I can't use logic to deduce that flying raisins didn't create the universe and pump the life blood of raisin jizz into our veins to give us life. Isn't that just mind blowing how it doesn't at all mean that I have ever hinted to be anything near all knowing or that I know how the universe began? Not knowing exactly how something is made != Knowing how its not made.

Maybe flying raisins did make the universe. All I've said is that your assumptions and "deductions" on Christianity are completely built upon incorrect statements.

I guess we'll never know since I'm not allowed to talk about aliens.

Like I said, we have that thread.

Now who is the hypocrite? Are mods the only ones allowed to talk about aliens or determine whether or not they are real or what?

No, I actually related the subject and addressed your inference at the same time. Did you read the last line of that paragraph?

Yes I'm the raging admin editing posts that conflict with my beliefs and then replacing them with what I think others should be believing.

I didn't edit any of your statements. I only removed the off-topic bit on aliens, as I said. Your weak statements don't have to be edited for my benefit.

Out of curiousity which ancient language are you refering to? Im pretty sure your claim has merit though,, because in (Modern) Turkish "Adam" means "Man". Turkish is a language which though itself not Semitic(Middle Eastern), has many Arabic loan words mainly from Arabic itself but also from Persian and other languages which have quite abit of Arabic loan words(Mostly Relegious terms)
:

I believe Hebrew, but maybe Aramaic or even Egyptian. I think Hebrew (I can never remember which one).


I created this thread not looking for answers myself, rather to see if it was capable for people to work together to learn something.This thread could prove to be a good learning tool for other things besides whether or not God exists.

I'll tell you this from what I've learned, truth is what you should be searching for and you should be chomping at the bit to recognize truth. Truth implies logic to me and with logical reason it seems that there must be something greater than all this. Example of what I'm talking about is based on simple logic, with your idea of a big bang occuring, something existed before hand, or with our idea of multiverses or separate dimensions there is something that has to exist outside of our universe. Whether that something is God or not I think should be irrelevant.

Logically speaking, since that is what my entire post seems to revolve around, I don't agree with any religion that I've ever heard of. Simply because of the question, if a perfect religion were to exist already, don't you think the world as a whole would have already found God and that there would be peace on earth and evil would not exist?

Keep trying guys, I got faith in you! :You_Rock_

I think that's everyone goal, Mr. A., to find the truth. It's certainly mine. The fact is, we're never going to know it, but we'll find one we can accept. I'm not saying I'm the best Christian, but I understand it the best. Truth is, religion can always be corrupted and used for man's greed, as I've stated earlier, but a few bad examples don't represent the whole by any means. Unfortunately, pointing out certain statements about Christianity caused some unnecessary back-and-forth that really wasn't necessary. Religion is such a heated debate, but I don't know why. There's a lot of hate, and I just don't understand why people can't others live in peace on their spiritual walks. If a religion makes someone a better person, a good person towards others, then why is that bad? No one is perfect of course, but everything begins with mutual respect for each other's differences.

I'm glad to see you're on the same path I was, Mr A. You may reach a different conclusion, but I certainly won't be telling you you're going straight to Hell if you do. :biggrin:

And I won't lock this thread. There's no reason to.

[.VX]

In Hebrew, Adam/Adham (from adamah; ground) just meant 'man'.

[redjoker]

To Mr. A:
Thank you for the positive response. Watching http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=singularity&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f# might help to give you some more ideas. Pay special attention to the end when he is describing his thoughts on how AI works. When you were talking about not really knowing for sure that something bigger than you is out there but your gut tells you that there is, that is your mind recognizing a general pattern. The pattern being that things change into something better. Little things make up big things that turn into bigger things and so on. You realize that this means that there should be something out there bigger than this because everything you've seen so far is like that.

My gut tells me that it takes a higher being to comprehend the truth and to complete the cycle. I believe we are here to bring about this higher being by exerting change within our reality. My belief in this means that I also must believe that I cannot comprehend the truth as I am. It is possible that the higher being that comes next won't be able to figure it out either. Kinda like a catch 22. Its like the journey, the now, our current reality is the only truth we are allowed to know according to these laws. We are just many parts of an ever expanding whole. We can't even know if the beginning and the end might even exist. Of course this is all coming from me now, before the singularity. Funny how my gut tells me to believe in something that cannot, by its own logic, be proven correct. This leads me back to reality where I don't give a fuck and claim to be a man of science because the fact that I exist should be enough motivation for me to better my life and the lives of others while exploring my reality.
Your title says it all.
You getting too comfortable with having the last word started it all.


Over thousands of years, facts do get lost. I can't speak for every church in every denomination, so I don't know what was preached. The facts were always there, but things also got mistranslated/misinterpreted. You can say whatever you want, but the original meaning was always there.So? Elaborate on this for me. Are the facts, interpretations, core belief or origins the thing that matters? If its the facts and interpretations that matter, Christianity is wrong. If the true meaning and the original message is only that there is one god and he is the creator and that's all that matters then Christianity is still just a bunch of garbage and you still can't prove the core belief. Unlike most heathens you might have had debates with in the past, you can't tell me to prove god doesn't exist. The thing that is different in this scenario is that I say intelligent design is a possibility. It is also a possibility that there is no intelligent design. I simply state that we don't have enough information to know exactly how it all began and that no religion can prove they are correct at the moment. I have put a little something we like to call the point in bold text for you.

Also, most ancients, contrary to popular belief, knew the earth was round.
The fact that you like to study origins puzzles me when you come to so many incorrect conclusions, No, no, no, wrong, wrong, wrong. Ancients, popular belief, earth being round having nothing to do with point you missed. You need to stop getting caught up in details. Besides it wasn't even until around the time it was translated to English that most no longer considered the earth to be flat. Maybe its just another example of the church making a 'change of convenience' to accommodate science and technology. Try and stick to the point.

but I'm not surprised you'd continue to use well known false statements and then use those as a basis of an argument. Now why would you have the public see me as an untrustworthy fellow? What lies have I been telling?

Well, it's quite obvious I know more about my religion than you do about mine.You're obviously right. Your religion is very personal. I can't possibly know your skewed version of reality. In fact, I can't think too many Christians that share exactly the same beliefs.

Maybe flying raisins did make the universe. All I've said is that your assumptions and "deductions" on Christianity are completely built upon incorrect statements. You were so close. Even though you didn't comprehend it you almost said the magic words. You just need to add 'by most followers of popular religions' after 'incorrect statements' and you would have gotten something known as 'the point' of that particular comment.

No, I actually related the subject and addressed your inference at the same time. Did you read the last line of that paragraph? Let me break it down like a fraction for you. You posted your opinions about aliens after removing mine. If comments about aliens are off topic then why would you post your opinions about them, especially after deleting mine? The readers will decide for themselves what your motives are.

I didn't edit any of your statements. I only removed the off-topic bit on aliens, as I said. Your weak statements don't have to be edited for my benefit.
Irony much? Seriously reread that a few dozen times if you don't believe me.

[odin_dax]

So? Elaborate on this for me. Are the facts, interpretations, core belief or origins the thing that matters? If its the facts and interpretations that matter, Christianity is wrong. If the true meaning and the original message is only that there is one god and he is the creator and that's all that matters then Christianity is still just a bunch of garbage and you still can't prove the core belief. Unlike most heathens you might have had debates with in the past, you can't tell me to prove god doesn't exist. The thing that is different in this scenario is that I say intelligent design is a possibility. It is also a possibility that there is no intelligent design. I simply state that we don't have enough information to know exactly how it all began and that no religion can prove they are correct at the moment. I have put a little something we like to call the point in bold text for you.

I understood you the first ten times (referring to bold text). It's not the philosophy or concept that I've been replying to.

No, no, no, wrong, wrong, wrong. Ancients, popular belief, earth being round having nothing to do with point you missed. You need to stop getting caught up in details.

Details are the substance. Why would anyone ignore details that are known to be false?

The Bible says the earth is round. Ancient Persians, Egyptians and Greeks though the earth was round, and the Egyptians even had a mathematical equation. I cite resources for all those statements.


Besides it wasn't even until around the time it was translated to English that most no longer considered the earth to be flat. Maybe its just another example of the church making a 'change of convenience' to accommodate science and technology. Try and stick to the point.

That's wrong. ^^^

Now why would you have the public see me as an untrustworthy fellow? What lies have I been telling?

Not lies per se, but lies you believe or wrong conclusions you have drawn up.

You're obviously right. Your religion is very personal. I can't possibly know your skewed version of reality. In fact, I can't think too many Christians that share exactly the same beliefs.

I appreciate that.

You were so close. Even though you didn't comprehend it you almost said the magic words. You just need to add 'by most followers of popular religions' after 'incorrect statements' and you would have gotten something known as 'the point' of that particular comment.

Now you're missing the point. I don't care what you believe. I really don't care what others say or have said. I only care about statements YOU have said. Philosophy, fine. You beliefs, fine. When you make statements that aren't true, I'm going to respond. Sorry.
You may prove by logic or evidence that parts of the Bible are wrong in the Christian religion, by all means try if you wish. So far, you haven't. I'm not saying that was your goal or not, but like you said, details.

Let me break it down like a fraction for you. You posted your opinions about aliens after removing mine. If comments about aliens are off topic then why would you post your opinions about them, especially after deleting mine? The readers will decide for themselves what your motives are.

Well, you're right and wrong on this one, but now you're just arguing the fact that I removed your statement rather than the points. Again I'll say, we have an aliens thread. I don't know why you insist on bringing up this bit on aliens all the time since you made no connection to religion when you discussed it. That's what this thread is about. I made that tie, you didn't. Yeah, I know what you meant, that's why I responded to it. It was wrong of me to mention the subject after removing your off-topic bit, so I apologize, but I made a firm, valid point on the subject you haven't addressed the numerous times you had opportunity. In sum, I apologize, you have/had your chance.


Irony much? Seriously reread that a few dozen times if you don't believe me.

"Edited" and "removed" aren't synonymous, at least in my book. Sorry if you don't agree.

************
No, I don't always need to have the last word. I just like to talk to brick walls.

And I do apologize that if you misinterpreted my language. Your phrasing certainly did set me off. I think some of your statements were quite uncalled for. How long did it take to invent the lightbulb? The ancients learn and innovate just as we do today. Maybe someday people will make fun of us for taking so long to invent the microprocessor. This bit I'm writing has nothing to do with subject. I appreciate your posts, really, just not your language. It was offensive to me, and I know to others. It's up to you to respond however you want, but I think respect for beliefs you have admitted you can't prove to be wrong is not asking for a lot.

[redjoker]

We may have gotten a bit off track. I was mostly pissed off about the post you deleted because I didn't save it. Also, I was really drunk. I've actually studied many religions in great detail. The problem I've had with Christianity is that I was raised by Christians and had the opportunity to hear some of the dumbest people imaginable tell me every week of my early life what all the mysteries in life were. Then I just got to thinking about the history of the church, who wrote the bible, and how its so fucked now as far as no one really knowing who's right about what. Walk into any baptist church and ask, "How did adam and eve populate the earth?" Their responses may surprise you with your newer beliefs. I don't like how the religion requires you to depend on other humans for guidance. This allows selfish/ignorant/malicious people to put themselves in front of the truth. Maybe Christianity at one time was worth a damn, but now its nothing like the original version. A version we might not ever see. The original meaning might be something totally different. You've had some of the dumbest humans imaginable just chopping and screwing the bible like a mix tape so that it 'fits in' to their world at the time. That is where the comment about the thunder and flat earth come into play.There was a time when, if you questioned the church you'd be burned alive for witchcraft. So forgive me if I have a tendency to get drunk and step on the throat of a religion that I've hated for a very long time.

I don't know about your particular version, but there is no way an intelligent person could walk into pretty much any church today, listen to their preaching, read genesis, and not laugh at how dumb it sounds.

Also check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version_of_the_Bible. Take note of the time. I meant Copernicanism rather than flat earth but it can still apply to general population. Its a known fact you can't get Aids by touching someone as long as you don't fuck/shareneedle/bleed in the process of tapping them on the shoulder. You would be surprised by the number of fuckmonkeys that don't know this. 10 years ago some of you may not have known this. So just because some chaps in one city knew not to pack dirt on their wounds, another city might be thinking the addition of salt to the dirt works better. A good reason to at question what the ancients might have told you.

[Mr.A]

Oh wait, I see why everybody isn't feeling what I'm feeling. You don't think one can understand it all? You don't think one could become a God, so to speak. I do.

I believe God exist, God created the universe, we are of God, why could we not "ascend" to God? Maybe thats what actually happened to that Jesus guy.

It's a lil circular, I'm aware.

To me, an absolute truth is something similar to a gemometrical proof. I can take this "truth" and "plug" it in to any philosophy, idea, or conceptual thought and it can still exist in harmony with all answers that I know, logical and illogical. That is my reality, whether or not is it "real" subjectively speaking as possible, to you isn't really all that important to me. What is important is that we all don't end up destroying this chance to excel to our full true potentional. Science has always been interesting to me, but this technological singularity, to me, seems to already exists. We're in the middle of it. Even when I hear and see the most advanced minds of our day speak about the most advanced knowledge they know of in their are of study they still end telling me, "I'm not so sure, theres just too many variables." lol, almost ironic, I bet the greatest minds in everyone of mans greatest civilizations have been saying that shit.:shock:

I liked the video, the man made me laugh a little when he said something along the lines of how man has evolved to be a farely stupid creature. I was almost hurt by how little faith man has in his own capabilities.

Odin, religion often turns into heated, hated debates over facts simply because man gets his emotions involved too much with the truths. He becomes too biased, and the knowledge merky. Tainted even.

All can agree that it benefits man greatly in his search for knowledge to be able to turn off his overly biased views and open his mind enough to let real subjective knowledge in. This is why its important to keep your emotions in check when disscussing things...they get in the ways sometimes, other times they motivates us to discover the greatest secrets. I wouldn't feel bad, it happens to all of us. Just shake hands and let the past roll of your shoulders so you can get back to work...this is fun stuff, I easily respectively say to all of you so far that you've helped me understand a lot more of the world around me.

I passed out from exhaustion midway through writing all of this, sorry if its a lil choppy here and there, haha. Seriously though, sleep deprivation is no laughing matter.:duh:

[odin_dax]

We may have gotten a bit off track. I was mostly pissed off about the post you deleted because I didn't save it. Also, I was really drunk. I've actually studied many religions in great detail. The problem I've had with Christianity is that I was raised by Christians and had the opportunity to hear some of the dumbest people imaginable tell me every week of my early life what all the mysteries in life were. Then I just got to thinking about the history of the church, who wrote the bible, and how its so fucked now as far as no one really knowing who's right about what. Walk into any baptist church and ask, "How did adam and eve populate the earth?" Their responses may surprise you with your newer beliefs. I don't like how the religion requires you to depend on other humans for guidance. This allows selfish/ignorant/malicious people to put themselves in front of the truth. Maybe Christianity at one time was worth a damn, but now its nothing like the original version. A version we might not ever see. The original meaning might be something totally different. You've had some of the dumbest humans imaginable just chopping and screwing the bible like a mix tape so that it 'fits in' to their world at the time. That is where the comment about the thunder and flat earth come into play.There was a time when, if you questioned the church you'd be burned alive for witchcraft. So forgive me if I have a tendency to get drunk and step on the throat of a religion that I've hated for a very long time.

I don't know about your particular version, but there is no way an intelligent person could walk into pretty much any church today, listen to their preaching, read genesis, and not laugh at how dumb it sounds.

Also check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version_of_the_Bible. Take note of the time. I meant Copernicanism rather than flat earth but it can still apply to general population. Its a known fact you can't get Aids by touching someone as long as you don't fuck/shareneedle/bleed in the process of tapping them on the shoulder. You would be surprised by the number of fuckmonkeys that don't know this. 10 years ago some of you may not have known this. So just because some chaps in one city knew not to pack dirt on their wounds, another city might be thinking the addition of salt to the dirt works better. A good reason to at question what the ancients might have told you.

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church and its history in the Holy Roman Empire. I'm not of a fan of its traditions because they seem like rituals of control. I'm not a fan of their current policies for sex and condoms, especially in Sicily, which forces girls to marry in their teens after they get pregnant (local ideals). If someone says they're a Catholic, I by no means say how I feel. I do respect their beliefs, but not their politics. It certainly isn't for me. No (offense to Catholics).

I too hate the ignorance of some many religious people. Why are so many so lazy and just trust oral tradition or the advice of a select few (leaders in the church)? Each denomination has a council where policies are decided, so every church in that denomination has to follow the council's decision whether or not it's religious truth.

I agree that you have every reason to hate religion. There are plenty to choose from, so I don't blame you for anything you say. The "good" ones are often the most quiet. My father gets blocked out of church policy meetings because he always disagrees with the elders (I don't consider myself a member or follower of that church and denomination).

I know we disagree on the conclusion, but I think we can agree on many things as well. I think we all have a common life philosophy, but it's cloudy by how we arrive there. If we act well and respect others, the earth would be a better place.

I think we've come to an understanding, and I'm quite happy about that, red.

*****************
Through trial and error, the ancients did discover other medicines. I'm not saying dirt cures AIDS, but such methods are how a lot of medical discoveries were made. I think the age of alchemy and mysticism, along with the Holy Roman Empire, slowed down medical progress through more scientific means though. But I digress, since this is getting off-topic.