Does the ends justify the means?: Nazi Style Eugenics

[Day_N_Night]

"edit" I apologize for the huge wall of text, i didn't think it would get this long. Also, i apologize for bad grammar and spelling in advance.

Eugenics is "the study of, or belief in, the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)."[2]

Nazi eugenics were Nazi Germany's racially-based social policies that placed the improvement of the race through eugenics at the center of their concerns and targeted those humans they identified as "life unworthy of life" (German Lebensunwertes Leben), including but not limited to the criminal, degenerate, dissident, feeble-minded, homosexual, idle, insane, religious, and weak, for elimination from the chain of heredity. More than 400,000 people were sterilized against their will, while 70,000 were killed in the Action T4

"Disclaimer: I'm not a Nazi or anything of the sort, this is purely a philosophical/speculative thread. A What if scenario if you would like. If you're gonna post here just to leave a smart ass comment then you can just go and fuck off, im not interested. On the other hand if you have something worth while to contribute here, then you are more than welcome to post."

Now imagine a world were Schitzophrenics couldn't reproduce, Retards wouldnt be able to survive let alone potentially reproduce. People with genetic diseases couldn't reproduce and people afflicted with "Dwarfism" wouldnt be able to procreate and bring forth a new generation of "Dwarfs".

Those unworthy of reproduction wouldn't be able to pass on their genes and thus their characteristics onto the next generation. In this day and age, people who are born with genetic defects that cause any number of diseases are able to survive and pass on their genes and their genetic defects. Because we live in such a modern age, people born without legs are even able to have children. They all pass on their defective genes to the next generation and pollute the human gene pool and cause terrible suffering

In the past (Pre 1900's), most of these people would have died off or been killed.

In the Viking society of yore in Scandanavia for instance, babies born defective would be left out in the cold to die from expsure or be carried off by a wild animal. And in the context of Nazi Style Eugenics: Sterilized or killed.

Through several generations, we could all but eleminate some genetic diseases, mentall illness which is beleived to be heriditary to some extent. We could through selective breeding of humans, breed a race of people who would grow to be in upwards of 6 feet tall and have blonde and blue eyes in the case of the Nazies. So, no more mentall illnesses, no more people with a weakness for alchohol. We would weed out the bad traits of man kind and accelerate the human evoloution through this process Eugenics to bring forth more diserable traits. We could engineer height, Intellegence, character and loyalty possibly. Imagine that.

We humans have changed the fate of many other species of animals throughout time. Man's best friend, the dog, is a perfect example of this. Within the Canine species we have so much variation because of selective breeding.

Take the Doberman Pincher or the Doberman (http://www.greatdogsite.com/admin/uploaded_files/1190779415doberman_pinscher.jpg) as it is more comonly known. Breeders were able to breed a breed of dog which is loyal, steadfast and somewhat agressive and which is known for being quite intellegent. They were also bred to be sleak and powerfully built, the image of a guard dog. It takes many generations to do so but because of this type of "doggy Eugenics" (hehe) we have German Shepherds, Dobberman, Labradors, Pit Bulls and Rotweilers. All these breeds of dogs have had their evoloution heavily influenced by man, to create a certain look and tempermente.

We have influenced the evolution of other species, the dogs being just one of the more prominent example, for thousands of years. Why shouldn't we do the same for ourselves?


With the advent of Genetic Enginering and Gene therapy where we can or soon will be able to achieve all the feats of Eugenics and create "designer babies" and in one generation too, is Eugenics still viable or not? Does it have its place at all in society?

[thief]

If this somehow came into law, Im sure that over 300 million people would be killed. What if the person had already produced children and then later in their life, Dr.'s realise the person has some type of heart probem or lung problem or hereditary problem that didnt show up in tests early in life? I guess they would just kill them and the offspring of the parents just as precaution. All these are just "teething problems" I guess of the idea untill it was perfected. Would take a lot of man hours and men to test 6.5 billion people to...

[odin_dax]

The problem with Eugenics now is that there are too many bad carriers, but I would assume most geneticists would argue that not all genes are passed on to the next generation. A lot of it depends on the partner as well, if both have bad traits, which traits are recessive or which are dominant.

You mentioned alcholism, but that's also a learned addiction.

My problem with Eugenics is it doesn't weed out stupid people. If humans did that, I don't think there'd be many of us left.

It also happens that when two "losers" meet, they usually end up together and have kids before splitting up. Life is funny...

[Day_N_Night]

If this somehow came into law, Im sure that over 300 million people would be killed. What if the person had already produced children and then later in their life, Dr.'s realise the person has some type of heart probem or lung problem or hereditary problem that didnt show up in tests early in life? I guess they would just kill them and the offspring of the parents just as precaution. All these are just "teething problems" I guess of the idea untill it was perfected. Would take a lot of man hours and men to test 6.5 billion people to...

Well, those with defects which are minor like a possible herditary condition would then be sterilized if it was predetermined that they had a high chance of passing on those negative genes. There are tests available now which can determine which conditions you are most possible to acquire later in life and it gives percentage for those if im not mistaken. I'm no scientist or doctor or anything like that, but i assume those with a risk rate of 50% and under would probably be given an exemption.

That said no human is perfect, supposedly in all of us we have about 6 or 7 genes that are supoosedly seriously flawed but not all of them manifest as a disease or condition.

Secoundly, not all 6.5 billion humans would become subject to such an experiment, The application of Eugnics would be applied in the context of soverign nations. So not all humans would derive benefit from Eugnics if applied, only a few would be subject.

The only nation i can see actually ever using Eugenics, all be it on a small scale, would be China. They don't seem to share the same notions of human rights and dignity as Western Nations do, and their scientists have acces to large budgets and grants and facilities.




You mentioned alcholism, but that's also a learned addiction.

That is quite correct, but it is i beleive herditary. Some people are more prone to it than others, namely those with a family history of alchoholism. I have also observed to a limited degree that certain ethnicities are more vulnerable to it. From my purely unscientific observations that would be Native Americans and Eastern Europeans.

My problem with Eugenics is it doesn't weed out stupid people. If humans did that, I don't think there'd be many of us left.


Well, it depends on what you mean by stupid. If you mean stupid as the abscence of a large IQ than that can be done, you can weed out those with lower IQs and breed those with larger IQs with other such people. It can be done.

If you mean stupid, by a lack of character. Well, Character is a learned trait. Some people don't have very good character due to just being that way naturally and upbringing. But if dog breeding is an example of anything, character can be bred into an animal to a certain extent it would seem.

[thief]

Or why couldnt the people with "Defects" like cancer etc be used in experiments to find a cure? (of course not physical defects)That way killing two birds with one stone untill the cure was found.

[Day_N_Night]

Or why couldnt the people with "Defects" like cancer etc be used in experiments to find a cure? (of course not physical defects)That way killing two birds with one stone untill the cure was found.

That's a very good question.

In fact that's actually what the Nazies did. Exactly that.

They conducted a wide range of "inhumane" experiments on defective people and those they deemed inferior (such as jews).

Nazie Scientists used Jews, Gypsies and the other such people in their exeprements on a wide variety of things. Today Scientists use animals for experements, but this is insufficient because animals react differently to things than humans. There is no better human analog than an actual human.

The Nazies have contributed to science and medecine because of their unreluctence in regard to causing other humans suffering in the name of Science and the pursuit of knowledge.

Contemporary knowledge concerning the manner in which our bodies react to freezing is based almost exclusively on these Nazi experiments. This, together with the recent use of data from Nazi research into the effects of phosgene gas, has proved controversial and presents an ethical dilemma for modern physicians who do not agree with the methods used to obtain these data

From about March 1941 to about January 1945, sterilization experiments were conducted at Auschwitz, Ravensbrück, and other places by Dr. Carl Clauberg.[13] The purpose of these experiments was to develop a method of sterilization which would be suitable for sterilizing millions of people with a minimum of time and effort.



On this site (http://www.remember.org/educate/medexp.html) different experments the Nazies conducted on humans are catalogued.

[Th0r]

In fact that's actually what the Nazies did. Exactly that.

They conducted a wide range of "inhumane" experiments on defective people and those they deemed inferior (such as jews).

Nazie Scientists used Jews, Gypsies and the other such people in their exeprements on a wide variety of things. Today Scientists use animals for experements, but this is insufficient because animals react differently to things than humans. There is no better human analog than an actual human.

The Nazies have contributed to science and medecine because of their unreluctence in regard to causing other humans suffering in the name of Science and the pursuit of knowledge.

First point. Most of the Nazi's Kamp experiments were military related and not necessarily in the name of science although you could describe it as being in the name of military science.

Second point. Considering we have people going to extreme measures to prevent 'animal cruelty' can you imagine the uproar at the prospect of scientific experiments on those deemed unworthy of life?

Third point. I feel it's debatable how much the Nazi's contributed to the understanding of science, although arguably they made some very interesting finds regarding genetics.

XXX

There are several questions we have to ask ourselves.

Are we living in a civilization where desperate times call for desperate measures?

Maybe.

Britain for example is one of the most overcrowded countries in the entire World and with the phenomenal amount of money put into dealing with people with severe learning disabilities among other things, which could be better spent elsewhere (Cleaning up the cess pit mistakenly referred to as 'Great' Britain could be one fine use of the money.). Could we euthanise the people with these defects.

You can't help but feel as if people with Down Syndrome and other similar conditions lead a miserable existence, what with being confined to a wheel chair, enduring shit from equally retarded Chavs and rarely being able to talk completely coherently.

Maybe if euthanasia was made available...

Maybe Downs is a bad example considering they can't, generally speaking reproduce. But, I digress.

XXX

That is quite correct, but it is i beleive herditary. Some people are more prone to it than others, namely those with a family history of alchoholism. I have also observed to a limited degree that certain ethnicities are more vulnerable to it. From my purely unscientific observations that would be Native Americans and Eastern Europeans.

It's the addictive personality that is hereditary. Also look at the positions of the Ethnic groups you named.


Come to think of it there is a lot more to be added.

[Day_N_Night]

Second point. Considering we have people going to extreme measures to prevent 'animal cruelty' can you imagine the uproar at the prospect of scientific experiments on those deemed unworthy of life?

Well, that certainly is an issue. I dont kno what to say, but that is a huge obstacle.

Third point. I feel it's debatable how much the Nazi's contributed to the understanding of science, although arguably they made some very interesting finds regarding genetics.

Wel,l given time they would have made much more contributions.

The Nazi regime was not in power for very long so its understandable that their contributions we're minimal.

The fact is that they were not limited to the moral constraints other western scientists are limited to, I belive they would have accomplished quite abit if they were around longer due to this.

There are several questions we have to ask ourselves.

Are we living in a civilization where desperate times call for desperate measures?

Maybe.

Britain for example is one of the most overcrowded countries in the entire World and with the phenomenal amount of money put into dealing with people with severe learning disabilities among other things, which could be better spent elsewhere (Cleaning up the cess pit mistakenly referred to as 'Great' Britain could be one fine use of the money.). Could we euthanise the people with these defects.

You can't help but feel as if people with Down Syndrome and other similar conditions lead a miserable existence, what with being confined to a wheel chair, enduring shit from equally retarded Chavs and rarely being able to talk completely coherently.

Let's face it, Down Syndrome people contribute nothing to society at all, they take up lots of government money as you say, have their own schools etc. These people can at most work at MCdonalds.

Maybe if euthanasia was made available...

Maybe Downs is a bad example considering they can't, generally speaking reproduce. But, I digress.

In my town, a retarded indian woman had a baby with another retard. The baby itself remarkably is normal despite the circumstances of his parents, but he will no doubt pass on defective genes to his offspring one day, which more than likely will probably have a high chance of having the affilcition that the grand parents have. These are the people i am talking about.

Also, Down Syndrome people don't breed but they take up government money and are still a drain on society none the less.

For down syndrome kids, i would recomend that they be euthanised at birth or aborted if they are spotted in an ultra sound. Regardless of Eugenics or anything this should be put into law, atleast in my opinion.


Also look at the positions of the Ethnic groups you named.


You mean that they generally live in poverty?

[Th0r]

Wel,l given time they would have made much more contributions.

The Nazi regime was not in power for very long so its understandable that their contributions we're minimal.

The fact is that they were not limited to the moral constraints other western scientists are limited to, I belive they would have accomplished quite abit if they were around longer due to this.

You mean that they generally live in poverty?

First point. Admittedly if it wasn't for the Nazi's no one would have ever gone into Space, Russian or American and man would never have landed on the moon.

Second point. Nazi moral constraints are peculiar, to say the least but not IMO unconstrained.

Third point. In certain economic conditions you'll likely find a higher proportion of alcoholics. But that being said not everyone in those conditions is an alcoholic and not everyone out of those conditions isn't an alcoholic.

[Day_N_Night]

Second point. Nazi moral constraints are peculiar, to say the least but not IMO unconstrained.

Well, perhaps, im not very knowlegable on the subject. But they certainly did unspeakable things to those they deemed unworthy of life. There is no denying that.

Third point. In certain economic conditions you'll likely find a higher proportion of alcoholics. But that being said not everyone in those conditions is an alcoholic and not everyone out of those conditions isn't an alcoholic.

Obviously not everyone would be an alcoholic, but a larger portion of the population would be.

Still, regardless of economic conditions i think certain groups of people are prone to it then others, and that it may be herditary (addictive personality as you have said).

[DangerousLuck]

Not to sound cliche, but I prefer chaos in evolution. To strive for perfection will probably cause disaster as getting rid of some genes and keeping others may open up new and more deadly irregularities and vulnerabilities. With the many many years of seemingly random survival, based on traits that may or may not appear to be worthwhile, we stand a greater chance for variation, and variation is (invariably, ha) the key to long-term survival of a species.

[NINEBREAKER]

eugenics is evil.

people need examples of what not to be so let the stupid people breed.

[Th0r]

eugenics is evil.

people need examples of what not to be so let the stupid people breed.

What and let them be costly to society?

[REL0AD]

Th0r, people like 'myers' (you know, our lil friend), he's highly intelligent but has no common sense what so ever, he got straight A's in school & is now studying criminology and sociology in university.

What would we do with those people? Highly intelligent but lacking common sense & street wiseness!

I say we sell the retards & such to high paying people for them to do what they wish with em, I'd stick um in a cage down the basement and poke um with sticks :)

[NINEBREAKER]

What and let them be costly to society?

they will kill themselves off. the cost to society is sustainable and its much better if they are left around to be examples for everyone else.

[Th0r]

they will kill themselves off. the cost to society is sustainable and its much better if they are left around to be examples for everyone else.

That's not the case since stupid people outnumber intelligent people by a much larger margin. Therefore they'll reproduce faster and regardless of whether they kill themselves off they'll still produce offspring.

I don't think we ought to exterminate the stupid, but allowing them to continue dragging society down...

[Micro]

THe "stupid" people produce much ofspring for the very purpose of countering the fact that some of them might/will die. It is classic way of just using brute force and numbers to succeed. And they do all this without thinking. Just look at africa, they spew out kid after kid only to die from malaria/AIDS/cholera/hunger/wars/rape/ but because so many are produced nature can't keep up the pace of killing them, so africa has some serious population growth.

I wonder if the world will be a idiocracy style shithole.
Maybe USA will be that way, but europe will mostlikely be drowned under a muslim horde in the next 30 years.

Ora maybe nothing special happens.