What is the point of exams?

[deviousgenius]

Hi, I was at college today and I was just wondering to myself as many victims of the education system do, WHAT IS THE POINT OF EXAMS?

To be honest, if you think about it, exams for many subjects, especially at higher levels like GCSE's and A-Levels (in the UK), can be taken, and high or even full marks can be achieved by merely memorising a text book. For example, if you were studying something such as religious studies, law or biology, a high percentage, if not all, the syllabus is based on so called facts which are documented in a text book which means that you wouldn't require an UNDERSTANDING of the subject as such to get good grades but that a person with a good MEMORY, or someone good at memorising things well or has photographic memory (if this exists) would achieve high marks.

Of course, this is not the case in ALL subjects, for example, a subject like maths would require an understanding of the subject because although it is based on facts (formulas, theorems, ideas etc...) no two questions are ever the same even though they may be related to the same topic, and the questions in the exam would be asked in different ways and would require you to put together your knowledge of different formulas and ideas to obtain the answer for a certain question - therefore you would need an UNDERSTANDING of maths.

Subjects like chemistry and physics require about 50% understanding and 50% memory so full marks would not really be possible in these subjects just by good memory alone but would require an understanding as well.

But for the subjects that require little or no understanding or deep thought or brain use, WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT OF TAKING EXAMS? One might as well memorise telephone numbers from a text book because it will pretty much do as much good as memorising a religious education textbook. I think that there should be other methods of testing for subjects like this such as continuous assesment or practical assesment but am i the only one who thinks this? OR am i wrong, and do all subjects require equal amounts of understanding and memory? Do exams as they are now prove anything at all apart from whether a person has a good memory or not?
What other methods could be used to test students if students should be tested at all... your opinions would be appreciated!

[Houndish]

First off... what is your concentration of study? Secondly, I hope you immediately leave whatever school is requiring you to take a relgious course of study, if this is indeeed the case. Tests are a neccesity as a system of measurement... whether or not the system is fair or accurately represents a students comprehension of a subject has been a long running debate with many alternative methods of education arising out of the results (pass/fail courses for example). Short answer, yes you need exams and yes they are useful. If I'm paying $5000-$30000 dollars a semester and I get straight A's you better fuckin believe I want to be distinguised from the next guy who passed with B's and C's.

It basically represents your level of committment and motivation for a given task. Also consistent high scores over a long perioud of time stand out to potential employers/members of whatever association you hope to become affiliated with. The only people I could think of that would be opposed to testing are people who don't test well or don't want to work.

Oh and memorization is a very small aspect to college level testing, anything need memorizing will be provided in a hand out or made on a note card. (this goes for maths, physics and generally any scientific courses using forumulas or specific methods)

Oh yah and it weeds out the weak.

[madscientist]

The only people I could think of that would be opposed to testing are people who don't test well or don't want to work.

...and those who are genuinely interested in learning.

[deviousgenius]

Short answer, yes you need exams and yes they are useful. If I'm paying $5000-$30000 dollars a semester and I get straight A's you better fuckin believe I want to be distinguised from the next guy who passed with B's and C's.

Fair enough but whats that A worth if you don't understand anything and you have achieved these grades due to good memory? I don't do RE or any such pointless subject; i study maths, chemistry and biology which are all subjects that require a greater proportion of understanding than most other subjects.

Im not saying abolish exams but there should be a system thats more effective in assesing students understanding of a subject. That way if you understand the subject you can be distinguished from the next guy who doesn't understand the subject if you see my point.

[duiker]

Deviousgenius, I really disagree with you on not needing understanding to do exams. To pass any exam well, you need a good knowledge of what you're talking about, because the questions aren't all going to be straight out of the text book. This is ESPECIALLY the case with English, and if you'd studied it, you'd know why.

[madscientist]

I did bad in school. Real bad. Yet somehow, I seem to have a stronger comprehension of every subject than the guys that were acing everything. Those who memorized all the mathematical formulas never seemed to catch the broader concepts, those who memorized chemical reactions had no real understanding of chemistry at all, those who did well in history had a very myopic take on such, and those who obsessed over grammatical rules are generally bland and uncreative writers.

After enough of them, that "F" starts to stand for "freedom." Schools are extremely mentally constrictive!

[Houndish]

After enough of them, that "F" starts to stand for "freedom." Schools are extremely mentally constrictive!

The fuck are you on? "F" stands for "freedom" AHAHAHA... try "fuck up". Let's see you spin your way around that "F" at an interview... As for school being mentally stifling... if you truly feel this way it sounds like any form of "structure" stifles your "creativity". Not too sure what world your living in... or wish you were living in... but in the modern civilized world, everything is structured with rules and guidelines to follow. If this doesn't appeal to your archaic nature you may consider moving to Niger or Sudan where you can experience the reality of anarchy and the harshness of true "freedom".

[madscientist]

Many, many scientists/entrepreneurs that made a name for themselves in history did not finish school. I've known people who've done very well without ever finishing school. School means a piece of paper, no experience or real applicable knowledge, debt, and wasted time.

[deviousgenius]

UNDERSTANDING -n
1. the ability to understand or think ;intelligence
2. individuals perceptive of a situation etc. (i.e. not the examiners or textbook authors perception of a situation)

-adj (adjective)
1. having understanding or insight

OXFORD DICTIONARY

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The fuck are you on? "F" stands for "freedom" AHAHAHA... try "fuck up". Let's

see you spin your way around that "F" at an interview...

Firstly, like i tried to point out, its not about trying to impress people/interviewers, its about knowing within yourself and being able to prove that you understand a subject, which most exams don't fully allow - ironic because exams are supposed to prove your understanding of a subject and not your memory capacity.

Obviously F doesn't stand for freedom in the eyes of interviewers but in real life, for some subjects, it does mate. Interviewers base their selection on exam results, good exam results can be obtained (in most subjects NOT ALL) by good memory...Look at it this way, from what i've just said, you could therefore impress an interviewer, your parents, teachers and as a result get a job when you don't have a real understanding or you have a limited understanding of a subject and you simply have a good memory capacity.

In some ways it is the fault of those who design the sylabus' as they restrict your thinking by basing the curriculum mainly on fact and not proof - and has probably led to the fact that the rate of advances in technology are slower than they used to be years ago (one sign of this is: try and name famous inventors of key technological advances- you'll find most of them were not of our time but of years gone by) when syllabus' allowed student more free thinking rather than just pumping students with facts.

And most of the time you'll find that if you go into a subject with the aim solely of getting good grades to get to uni and not seeking to find an understanding of a subject, then you have already gone some way in blocking your mind from actually really understanding the subject because this is not your aim.

My problem with the whole education system is the fact that it is unfair on the real thinkers who are not as able at memorising thing as others. And the bias for passing an exam in SOME subjects is towards memory.

Many, many scientists/entrepreneurs that made a name for themselves in

history did not finish school. I've known people who've done very well

without ever finishing school. School means a piece of paper, no experience or

real applicable knowledge, debt, and wasted time.

I agree with this but its not only in history, its in many many other subjects as well. Most likely, because they didn't conform to flawed school sylabus' and testing methods but allowed themselves to really think deep on the subject and find out for themselves the reasons for certain facts - which leads to A BETTER UNDERSTANDING!

I did bad in school. Real bad. Yet somehow, I seem to have a stronger

comprehension of every subject than the guys that were acing everything.

Those who memorized all the mathematical formulas never seemed to catch

the broader concepts, those who memorized chemical reactions had no real

understanding of chemistry at all, those who did well in history had a very

myopic take on such, and those who obsessed over grammatical rules are

generally bland and uncreative writers.

I agree with this too...the reason i started talking about this is because the same applies to me. When it comes to exams i get decent grades but some people who struggle more in class when asked questions and asked to actually THINK about things, are not as good as me. I find this especially in things like Biology.

To pass any exam well, you need a good knowledge of what you're

talking about, because the questions aren't all going to be straight out of the

text book. This is ESPECIALLY the case with English, and if you'd studied it,

you'd know why.

I said SOME subjects and not ALL subjects! English is one of the few exceptions. And of course you need some level of understanding in every subject. i have studied english...i got an A but it means nothing to me. I'm glad i realised this...

Think about it...don't just say what your mum, dad or teachers would say!

[Houndish]

Everything I've said comes directly from personal experience. Understanding a subject and being able to PROVE it are two different things. Most people don't have time to shake out the last drops of a piss let alone sit down and have a deep philosophical conversation regarding the origin/nature/future of computer information systems/mircrobiological cell reproduction/exponential population growth or whatever your field of study may be. Also most of these fields are so specialized and obscure that your average joe isn't going to give two squirts of piss about how in depth and knowledgeable you are about the migrating patterns of the brown peckered wood squirrel or 20th century construction techniques vs 19th century construction techniques (again apply it to your field).

You'll have to prove yourself once. Pass the test and be happy that that is all that's required of you. Also I'm having difficulty accepting that fact that you (or whoever started this) appreciates a subject of study and truly enjoys it can't appreciate a test on it. The test should be easy if you are truly as knowledgeable and understanding of the subject matter as you claim to be.

Also remember, schools have to achieve a certain success rate of graduates in order to maintain their private and federal funding. Are you in favor of harder tests that will reflect a more accurate comprehension of a subject or the abolishment of tests in general. Either way remember these have to be catered to the least common denominator in the class which is usually a 45 year old house wife trying to better her life through continuing education and hasn't been to school in 25 years. Think of other people.

[madscientist]

Employers want people who understand what they're doing, not people that can just do well on some tests and study.

It's the schools that teach you that useless stuff you're citing. You've got it backwards.

Tests are a pain because they force you to memorize shit that you should just be looking up in a book left on your desk for reference.

[Houndish]

You think you're going to use what you learn in school in industry? You've got to be joking. What do you know about education and the direct relation to industrial practices? Anything? All they want to know is that you are capable of performing under a high stress, competitive enviroment with a standard system of what is acceptable and what is not. That's why college students stand out from high school students and why post graduates stand out from regular 4 year degree holders. They don't use what they learned in school... they just proved that they're more dedicated at pursuing their goals than the non-graduate. I dunno... who the fuck am I talking to here... have any of you ever graduated from college and are employed in the field in which you majored? If so your input would be far more welcomed...

Again with the fucking memorization... what college course did you take that required you to memorize shit. What fucking school was this? I know at my college all forumulae and equations are given to you and are available during the test.

[madscientist]

No, that's not all they want to know.

I'm not speaking out of ignorance here. I've known a number of people who've faired extremely well without (in one case) even graduating from high school. Apparently, after you've got some kind of experience proving you know what you're doing, employers, in many fields, don't really even look for a diploma.

[THErAPIST]

You think you're going to use what you learn in school in industry? You've got to be joking.

Tech schools dont usually teach you stuff you dont need to know or won't ever use. universities on the other hand do.

As far as exams go... I hate exams. I really do. I have somehting wrong with me apparently. I may know something, but the instant I see a test I seem to forget the correct terms for things. I'll know what I need to know but I cant remember the correct term. This may also be the case when I'm not being tested. Say you were to point at a part on an engine and ask me what it did, how it performed, how to know when to replace it, how it functioned alongside other engine components, and the part name. I may not know the exact correct term, but I'd be able to tell you in detail exactly how that particular part worked.

Tests are needed, but a general comprehension and full understanding of the subject as a whole is what's needed. If anything tests should be made out so that if you honestly have a firm understanding of a subject you can still pass it even if you don't know a correct term for something. Sure, at times the correct terminology for things is required, but not nearly as often as it would seem. Tests are a required thing in the educational system though. They are, in the end, the only way to actually prove that people have the comprehension that they need.

As for the experience... On a lot of job listings they either say that you're required to have gone to school and you have a certain certification, OR so many years experience. Most employers realize that while you may not be any good at school related things, if you have a few years experience under your belt it shows that youre both loyal, and that you have an understanding of what you need to know. If you don't have that understanding, then how would you have that many years of experience? You would have been kicked to the curb long before you got that much experience. As a matter of fact, 70% of the time people with a few years experience in a given field will be hired over someone who's fresh out of school. This is simply because they likely have a more indepth knowledge having been exposed to situations that the schooled individual won't have experienced until they've been put to work for a while.

Hound, what are you in school for? I thought you said somewhere in a previous post but I can't find it now.

[Houndish]

Come this summer I'll graduate with an Associates in Civil Engineering, Structural concentration (bridges, highways, retaining walls, site work, etc.) I went to a trade high school and took Drafting. I've been employed since graduating high school in '03 for an architectural design firm where I'm practically an architect without a license. I work there full time and go to school full time.

[Stone]

In the tech and PLC colleges here, your grade is determined mainly by continious assessment. That way, even if I you don't do well in the exam, you have your whole years work to fall back on to bring your final score up. Last year, one of our subjects were based on continious assessment alone, and I got a distinction, where I probably would only have got a merit if I had to do an exam. I agree that tests do not show a students ability in a fair way.

[DoctaD]

My knowledge here isn't exactly up to scratch, I'm not exactly a proud achievement of any education system, but this problem has been bitched about for years and things have been done about it!

With most, if not all, GCSEs and A Levels now you are graded on something called coursework, no?

I've never been the best at working under pressure, and usually feel quite stressed when having to sit an exam... in my GCSE Technology and Design I got an A, because of the fact that my coursework was 60% of my overall mark, and it kicked ass... I got Bs in English, Maths and French because of my coursework in the first two and because of a pretty cool teacher in the latter.

Exams are a necessary evil, which are used when nothing else is available, either because of a lack of ideas or a lack of funding. Do you think a public school is going to have the money to hire enough staff to continually monitor everyone in a class of 35 kids, in order to grade them at the end of the year without putting the poor little bastards into a stressful situation to prove what they have learned? No way, the situation now is better than it was before, so be happy with what you have or do something about it... study, become someone, and change things!

...of course, you could also bring in laws similar to those of China, limiting families ability to bring life into the world. That way there will be less kids, less money needed, more available for R&D into your next generation education system.

As far as the necessity of an education goes, sure you can do well without GCSEs or your high school diploma or a college education or whatever, but you could also be a failure. An education is a backup plan, if nothing else. Those people who have went down in history, the inventors and scholars who didn't finish a formal education, they had something special. That doesn't mean that everyone who drops out of high school is going to be a genious, or incredibly lucky.

I know one thing, my kids will be doing the best they can in school. A parent brings a child into the world and should raise it to the best of their abilities, which includes motivating that child to get the best education they can. After that, the child is set out into the big bad world to make something of themselves, but surely having an education behind them before taking this step is a lot better than having a PHD in ordering pizza or smoking salvia.

It's too early... I should still be in bed.

[madscientist]

Schools should just be set on fire.

The End

[Houndish]

DoctaD makes a great point that I said earlier in perhaps another post speaking about my personal situation. School is a backup plan. When used in this respect it becomes a powerful tool, while your mind is mostly engaged in your primary goal you can be stimulated with new ideas and new approaches to solving problems through course work and just the general cultivating atmosphere that exists on most modern day college campuses.

mad I don't know what you plan on doing with your life or why you have such an immature and unreasonable outlook on something as important as public education but hey... you know, your purpose in life may be merely to serve as a warning to others. Do well in school kids... or you may end up like this guy.

[madscientist]

School doesn't work so well as a "backup" plan when you lack rich parents that pay for everything or (for that matter) anything.

while your mind is mostly engaged in your primary goal you can be stimulated with new ideas and new approaches to solving problems through course work and just the general cultivating atmosphere that exists on most modern day college campuses.

You sound like a brochure.

If you really believe that going to school is the best way to learn to think, then you're very, very lost.

mad I don't know what you plan on doing with your life or why you have such an immature and unreasonable outlook on something as important as public education but hey...

My AP chem teacher used to turn to me when students asked him questions he didn't have an answer for. Some kid being able to outpace someone with a degree and decades of experience somehow - very amazingly - reduces faith in the public education system.

you know, your purpose in life may be merely to serve as a warning to others. Do well in school kids... or you may end up like this guy.

Thank you for your clever despair.com rip.

Let me repeat:

I'm not speaking out of ignorance here. I've known a number of people who've faired extremely well without (in one case) even graduating from high school. Apparently, after you've got some kind of experience proving you know what you're doing, employers, in many fields, don't really even look for a diploma.

Your words are the ignorant ones it seems.

[Houndish]

Rich parents? Dude everythign I've gotten in my life I've paid for myself. My car, my apartment(and everything in it), my education. I work 2 jobs and maintain full time student status for the tax benefits at the end of the year all to get what I've gotten. If there's one fucking thing I can't stand more than anything is people who make excuses for not working to their full potential. WAh my parents aren't rich, wah my life is hard, wah no one hands me anything NO FUCKING SHIT. When you grow up maybe you'll realize this... then again maybe not and you can still serve as a shining example of what not to become.

Why didn't you answer my question. What do you do? How do you make a living? How fucking old are you? What's your 5 year goals? Fuck give me a 1 year goal. Give me some reason why I should put any weight into your opinion. What do you know about hard work or hard living? What the fuck do you know about anything? Who are these successful dropouts and what do they do? Oh and for every 1 successful drop out theres 50 burger flippers/crack addicts/or military cannon fodder. Good luck with that, you're going to fucking need it.

[madscientist]

What do you do?

I jack off and get high.

How do you make a living?

I fly to Columbia tomorrow.

How fucking old are you?

11.

What's your 5 year goals?

The fuck I care?

Fuck give me a 1 year goal.

More fucking planes.

Give me some reason why I should put any weight into your opinion.

Why don't you? Your saying YOU'RE FUCKED YOU DIPSHITTED DROPOUT doesn't fly too well in my world when I know a number of people who are successful dropouts. The dropouts that wither away are the ones without motivation.

What do you know about hard work or hard living?

A lot more than I'd care to. I've been on my own since I was 16, to give you a start.

What the fuck do you know about anything?

Absolutely jack. I'm dumb as fuck. My IQ is about 2 or so.

Who are these successful dropouts and what do they do?

I was going to ask, but they're in prison. Sorry.

Oh and for every 1 successful drop out theres 50 burger flippers/crack addicts/or military cannon fodder.

And that is the one thing you've said that I agree with.

[madscientist]

...

[deviousgenius]

for every 1 successful drop out theres 50 burger flippers/crack addicts/or military cannon fodder.

but for every succesful student who gets high grades at school, there are 50 similar school students with similar results BUT who don't understand what they're doing. It works both ways houndish. Open your eyes to life's harsh realities. Nuff said

[THErAPIST]

What'swith the hostility? everyone is entitled to their own opinion right? Everyone has seen and dealt with things that other may not have right? this being the case, maybe BOTH of you are right...?

I know mad somewhat. He's smart as shit. Makes me look like a dumb fuck 70% of the time. School just isn't the thing for him. He's also one of the most imaginative people I've ever spoken to. If you really think about it, a lot of people like HIM hate school, find their way out of it, and fare well in their lives. On the opposite end of the spectrum there are people who make great grades in school end up being bums. It's give and take. different stories for different personalities.

In the end it's pride, motivation, and a sense of self worth that really gets people to where they need to be in life, not how they get their education which can come from many MANY sources. Am I the only one who currently thinks this bashing we're doing is serving to make us ALL look like childish hypocrites with over-inflated egos and a bullshit sense of "I'm the fucking right one! he's the one with the wrong motherfucking view!!!"?

Think about it. IF we were all witless shit eaters would we even be here talking to each other or would we be out sucking on some suit's cock to get a bag of coke? Fuck it people, God damn! I'm going to sleep now...

[Houndish]

Agree to disagree I guess. I concede my point.

[Stone]

I believe that school is valuable in life. It not only teaches the standard subjects that you are supposed to learn, but on a different level teaches skills and brings out personal qualities that you will need once you become an adult. Such as social interaction, confidence in a crowd, the ability to stand up for yourself, etc. The most important being (in my point of view): You are not alone in this world, the world does not revolve around you. There are people who will take advantage of you in any way they can just to get themsleves ahead. <- That is something you have to learn from experience, and you cannot experience that as a kid if you do not go to school.

[C.R. Ripshit]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "What ARE the point of exams?"?

[Houndish]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... he's right.

[madscientist]

No, "is" is connected to the singular "point," not the plural "exams."

[deviousgenius]

some people seem to have forgotten the point of this thread...it is not about proving whether school is useful or not...of course school is necessary. The thread asks the question: what is the point of exams? (as they are now)

[Houndish]

Yah he's right... shit! The point of exams is to fuck with people.