The Purpose and Meaning of Life

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

Ok Rorta members. My turn to ask an intelligent and perhaps infinitely difficult question...

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF LIFE? Of Existence?..

Since I am a NIHILIST (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism) , I believe that LIFE IS MEANINGLESS and PURPOSELESS. Why?

a.There is no proof that a Supreme Being, God, or Creator reasonably exists. Faith is just a very lame defense against the unknown. There is no proper reason to assume that God exists.

b. A "true morality" is unknown. Muslims can't eat pork yet Christians can, and many people from both sides still tell me they that have the same God? There have been a myriad a different cultures and customs over the ages and all of them were supposedly "right" to the people trapped by them. Until now we still don't know what the "true morality" really is. Different cultures and peoples regard each other as wrong. Who's right?

c.There is no proper secular code of ethics. Enter the endless debate of abortion, capital punishment and so on. Pro-life or pro-choice? Kill the convict or let him die of old age? What is the ultimate basis for any of these choices? Without the blind faith towards the code of conducts supplied by the various religions, how can we possibly know what we are doing is either right or wrong?

Is there any point of trying to put blind values toward anything when these three points are considered?

...any comments? ideas? thoughts? Will someone prove me that I'm wrong?:sgrin:

[SayItAintSo014]

My turn to ask an intelligent and perhaps infinitely difficult question...



Will someone prove me that I'm wrong?:sgrin:



No one can really prove whether you're right or wrong. Seeing how this is an "infinitly difficult question", and that there is no real proof of existence.

[Armalite]

A better question, especially frm the nihiist perspective, is whether or not the concept of purpose is even intelligible. A logical extension of the nihilist stripping of arbitrary values from things will lead to the total destruction of concepts built upon nothing else.

[INCH06]

I believe it's all about survival...

I agree with your stance on god.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

Originally posted by Armalite:
A better question, especially frm the nihiist perspective, is whether or not the concept of purpose is even intelligible. A logical extension of the nihilist stripping of arbitrary values from things will lead to the total destruction of concepts built upon nothing else.

Quite true. However, I question what it all leads to. Since all values are destroyed, and "true" knowledge of anything is unattainable, we are left with "nothing". Human existence thrives on purpose and knowledge. Take those away and we have nothing.

Perhaps I am asking for a reasonable action, the next step, when there really is none.

The nihilist perspective is difficult to accept.

For "to the swine, all things become swinish."-Friedrich Nietzsche

[Armalite]

And that is precisely what nihilism is.

Interesting that you would qote Nietzsche. His philosophy was completely antithetical to nihilism. The he believed people must develop their intellectual and moral abilities to become "ubermensch." He also expressed in Zarathustra that it was the duty of those who knew the "truth" he knew to go down from the mountain and spread it to everyone else. Clearly he believed in some value inherent in things. Nietzsche though that Christianity was causing people to lose their sense of value and morality, and leading them to nihiism. He had a profound distatse for what thought was an anti-human religion.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

..though I have yet to read through all his works, which will no doubt be very interesting to me, I quite agree with that view towards Christianity as an anti-human and nihilistic religion. But I think that it would be quite impossible that Christianity could ever hold the true depth and meaning to the knowledge of which only which Jesus himself knew. But the way it has developed itself is disgusting because it upholds the same values it destroys.

..yet I wonder how exactly the leap from nihilist to "ubermensch" is achieved. How does one who asserts that "the true nature of anything cannot be known, and if it cannot be known, it cannot be communicated" traverse between the space of destroying values and creating them? Should we then not question the personal morality and values we create? From the way I see it, it would all eventually return to nihilism. Yet I wish it were not so.

[Armalite]

Because, as I stated, Nietzsche was not a nihilist. It is a common misconception.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

...and I did not mean to imply that Nietzsche was a nihilist. What I meant what was, how can Nietzsche say that overcoming nihilism would be a step towards achieving what he called the ubermensch? How could such a thing be possible? Again, how can a nihilist become the ubermensch when in fact the values and ideals created by the ubermensch are destroyed by the nihilist?

[Armalite]

What? You are not following. The nihilist does not become ubermensch. Nietzsche despised nihilism, and nihilists. In order to develop your moral abilities, obviously, you must believe that there is value in such an attempt and that morality exists in some way. Whether morality is a human abstraction or concrete, according to Nietzsche, I do not know. But that is irrelevant at this point.

[duiker]

Without reading any of the above, I fully believe everything is entwined in purpose. Without purpose, nothing would live, (why should it, after all, what's the point?), survival without a purpose goes against the whole grain of nature.

The thought of life without purpose is absurdity- a rock realises it doesn't have to exist and thus instantly dissappears. Something or someone wills us to purpose. We don't always think about it but it's pretty stupid to think that there is no purpose in our existence. Because if that's the case, everything we do becomes stupid and absurd, seeing as we have no point in existing!

Do you get it from my point of view?

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

Without reading any of the above, I fully believe everything is entwined in purpose. Without purpose, nothing would live, (why should it, after all, what's the point?), survival without a purpose goes against the whole grain of nature.

The thought of life without purpose is absurdity- a rock realises it doesn't have to exist and thus instantly dissappears. Something or someone wills us to purpose. We don't always think about it but it's pretty stupid to think that there is no purpose in our existence. Because if that's the case, everything we do becomes stupid and absurd, seeing as we have no point in existing!

Do you get it from my point of view?

...Of course I see your point of view, duiker. Yet I suggest you let go of all your pre-concieved notions in order to see things in a different way... An empty yet open sort of way. Sort of like what we thought about the solar system 600 years ago. We all thought that the sun revolved around the earth because it only "supposedly" made sense that we were the center of the universe. It's been proven false, yet the world ASSUMED it was that way. In a like manner, what makes you so sure that everything has a purpose? You don't know that. The idea may seem absurd to you that ultimately EVERYTHING is pointless, yet try to broaden your perspective a little bit. I don't think rocks dissapear when they realize that they ultimately mean nothing, as rocks are incapable of thought. It's not stupid to think that everything MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY HAVE A PURPOSE, yet you're just used to the idea that everything means something. Be open.

..Another thing. If everything has purpose, as something wills us to purpose, who willed that something to purpose that willed you to purpose? More "There must have been a creator" bullshit. If everything has a creator, and creators are things, then all creators have creators. As such, it is a never-ending cycle. And that seems pretty impossible to me. That would go back to time before time itself. Think about it. :tongue:

[duiker]

Yes, I could think that- I could believe generally that we are here without purpose, plan, forethought, or whim and that wherever we go is up to us, whatever we do has no greater meaning and so on, but where would it get me?

I mean, the way you guys think amazes me sometimes, and I struggle to keep up. I value freethinking although I'm kind of programmed myself. But I think that to try to figure out the question of 42 is unattainable in this life, but I know the mystery will be revealed in the next. So I focus on what I can do in this life and what I see as achievable. So to think nihilist would take me a year to learn, and it would depress me.. to what end?

[ComfortablyNumb]

Typical womanly jibber-jabber.:wizard:

[Armalite]

Wow duiker. You completely missed the point.

The thought of life without purpose is absurdity- a rock realises it doesn't have to exist and thus instantly dissappears.


So what? Where in the laws of the universe is it stated that things can't be stupid? And surely you are aware that such concepts as "stupid" and "pointless" are nonsensical in this realm of thought. And as was pointed out, rocks do not behave in the manner you describe.



Yes, I could think that- I could believe generally that we are here without purpose, plan, forethought, or whim and that wherever we go is up to us, whatever we do has no greater meaning and so on, but where would it get me?


Why does it have to get you anywhere? Is it of any practical consequence to you whether the sun revolves around the earth, or the other way around?


But I think that to try to figure out the question of 42 is unattainable in this life, but I know the mystery will be revealed in the next.


You most certainly do NOT know this.

[duiker]

Hah. But yes I do. And I can tell you that all the knowledge in this world, without purpose is useless. You have to have SOME precepts before you can dare think about anything at all, like a point of reference. Otherwise, you'll think yourself back to the start. I promise you, you won't get anywhere.

See what bugs me is that we are so damn advanced technologically, and we think we're so much more intelligent than the ancients, but quite literally, nothing has changed- we're still dying of diseases, fighting wars, people are still dying because of drastic imbalances in the world. We still run ourselves into the ground with useless circles thinking that we're going somewhere when we're chasing a mirage of a dollar bill-- that or some pretence of finding good within ourselves.

My point is instead of fighting over the spelling of some word that only half the poplulation knows exists.. hello? The world is dying. And you take this like a fundamentalist religion. I mean, how do you know that rocks don't think? Is that not a preconcieved idea? See, no matter how many boxes you step outside of, there's always another.

That's why I think most in places that should get me somewhere.

[Scamula]

Typical womanly jibber-jabber.:wizard:

Typical Homer Simpsonesque uselessness.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Typical Homer Simpsonesque uselessness.

Exactly.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

But I think that to try to figure out the question of 42 is unattainable in this life, but I know the mystery will be revealed in the next.

Bullshit. Pure and simple. You can't prove that.

See what bugs me is that we are so damn advanced technologically, and we think we're so much more intelligent than the ancients, but quite literally, nothing has changed- we're still dying of diseases, fighting wars, people are still dying because of drastic imbalances in the world.

Well, you fail to see that death is just another natural process of life. Technology won't change that for a very long time and if you're so concerned over that fact, then you had better accept it and move on.

And you take this like a fundamentalist religion. I mean, how do you know that rocks don't think?

LOL! That rocks that think? That sounds pretty much like a fundamentalist religion.. :tongue:

[duiker]

We're all living in a yellow submarine, there's no doubt about it.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

We're all living in a yellow submarine, there's no doubt about it.
More jibber-jabber.


...
Anyone else have an opinion on our topic? What do you other members think? Ultimately, is life not meaningless? Purposeless? Put up.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Fraid it is, ultimately, from an objective point of view, meaningless. That, however, doesn't mean that one cannot give his/her own life some sort of meaning that he/she finds personally meaningful. Doesnt really matter what it is, just so long as it what you want to do.

[art]

I believe it's all about survival...


I agree.

Whilst we live in this capitalistic womb with supermarkets we are basically being breast fed and weened into to thinking we are surviving. Inside this system everyone survives. So, temporarily 'survival' is on pause, but its still the main 'purpose' i think. If the system were to ever fall away, this would obviously be made startling clear, as was the case in New Orleans eg.

However, if, now, whilst under the veil of capitalististic nurture, we are to find to find a purpose, i believe there isn't one. Someone once said: there is only potential. I think it was Joseph Campbell. I like that. You don't have a purpose - no one does - but you do have potential. What you do with that is up to you i guess.

Oh yeah hello found this website today, very cool, downloaded that pack thing documents and pdfs and stuff. Cheers.

:knockedou

[ComfortablyNumb]

Thats nice, but so is this "capitalistic womb" you're jabbering about. Who cares if "survival" is put on hold, that means we have time for other things, like going to the movies, the beach, smoking pot, all of these things would be impossible without this "veil of capitalistic nurture," and frankly, I'd rather be able to it on my couch stoned all day watching cartoons than be forced to go out and struggle to make ends meat by "surviving." I'd rather flourish than survive.

[art]

^^^

I don't know if i'd call a couch, bongs and watching cartoons "flourishing", and actually rather than thinking you're "doing other things", i'd say you're a clone.

[ComfortablyNumb]

I said I can do those things, not that I do (which I do, however not all the time). what I meant by flourish though was that I have to option to flourish if I so choose, and if I get off my lazy ass, if I had to invest all of my time into simply "surviving" I wouldnt be able to do that. The point I was trying to get across though was the fact that our society does, no matter how much you disagree, allow us to have choices about what we do with our lives -- we are not preoccupied with thoughts of how we're going to make it through the day/

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

I said I can do those things, not that I do (which I do, however not all the time). what I meant by flourish though was that I have to option to flourish if I so choose, and if I get off my lazy ass, if I had to invest all of my time into simply "surviving" I wouldnt be able to do that. The point I was trying to get across though was the fact that our society does, no matter how much you disagree, allow us to have choices about what we do with our lives -- we are not preoccupied with thoughts of how we're going to make it through the day/

..Well, actually that depends. That MAY be apparent in your location, but certainly not in all others, and certainly not in a few poverty-stricken places not 5 miles from my house. So many people here in the Philippines have bamboo-palm huts with only the floor to sleep on and nowhere to go. Corruption here is so rampant that people here have just stopped giving a fuck. I know a lot of people who work 10 hours a day for 130 pesos and a family to feed. 130 pesos is roughly equilant to 2-3 dollars. Not a fucking lot. Opportunities for education are very limited for the poor. The Philippines is full of ignorant and uneducated people who have almost no future and no opportunities for amelioration. People here ARE preoccupied with thoughts of how to make it through the day. Open your eyes.

..FYI only. No hard feelings intended. :smokin:

[ComfortablyNumb]

Woops, sorry I didn't make it clear that I was referring to where I live, I'm well aware that things are much different in other places, and I didn't mean to imply that anyone can live the way I live/make the same choices, I was just talking about the situation in America. Fuck, I don't know enough about the Phillippines to say shit about it, except that that language you speak is pretty fuckin crazy sounding. didn't mean to offend anyone, sorry if i did.

[duiker]

More jibber-jabber.

And this is?...







Purpose was to survive?
Survive for what purpose?

[Armalite]

Tagalog doesn't sound that crazy...

[ComfortablyNumb]

I disagree, it sounds like a willy-nilly mixture of spanish, english and something native. (at least I think that's Tagalog)

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

Well, Tagalog isn't the only language we speak. That's the national language. But as the Philippines has a diverse cultural heritage (not that I give a fuck) there are hundreds of smaller, more native languages that more or less pertain to particular regions or islands of the country. I speak both Tagalog and Visayan. There happen to be both Spanish and English influences in both languages. But Visayan is the slightly more barbaric-sounding of the two. :veryhappy

[Armalite]

I disagree, it sounds like a willy-nilly mixture of spanish, english and something native. (at least I think that's Tagalog)



It kinda is, actually...but its easy to learn. I've even started to pick up a few phrases.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

It kinda is, actually...but its easy to learn. I've even started to pick up a few phrases.

..such as?

[Armalite]

just some basic stuff...

Kumusta ka?

Kakatayin kita!!

Alisin mo ang iyong panti.

Kailangang mag-ingat tayo tungkol sa AIDS.


heheh....you know... the necessities of conversation.

[Wanderer]

Personally, I find the entire debate about purpose to be completely useless, because regardless of the outcome you are still left with your life to live, and your perception of truth is dictated by what you experience which is what you will live by as long as you live wehte the reason is reason or none at all.

[ate]

a.There is no proof that a Supreme Being, God, or Creator reasonably exists. Faith is just a very lame defense against the unknown. There is no proper reason to assume that God exists.

b. A "true morality" is unknown. Muslims can't eat pork yet Christians can, and many people from both sides still tell me they that have the same God? There have been a myriad a different cultures and customs over the ages and all of them were supposedly "right" to the people trapped by them. Until now we still don't know what the "true morality" really is. Different cultures and peoples regard each other as wrong. Who's right?

c.There is no proper secular code of ethics. Enter the endless debate of abortion, capital punishment and so on. Pro-life or pro-choice? Kill the convict or let him die of old age? What is the ultimate basis for any of these choices? Without the blind faith towards the code of conducts supplied by the various religions, how can we possibly know what we are doing is either right or wrong?


It sounds like you haven't thought for yourself in a very long time.

[Armalite]

How so?

[gbu-36]

You all just need massive amounts of mescaline and DMT, changes everything it does.


Yep Yep Yep ^-^

[dylanrush08]

I'll believe that life has meaning once someone can show me that it does, or if I see proof that it does.

My parents never sat me down and said, Life is meaningful, which might explain why I am also a nihilist.

[headcase]

The fact that there isn't a god is pretty much proved by the theory of evolution. Complexity breeds complexity and all that (I won't rehash "The God Delusion" to you). But the theory of evolution moots any point or reason behind existance. All we are here to do is survive and advance ourselves. Humans are far from the "ultimate" species, because to the the "ultimate" at something you must have strived to achieve that "ultimate goal", of shich we have none.

That is, at least, from a scientific point of view. If you wish to delve into the spiritual then al we can rely on is hearsay and speculation without and hope of proof. Unicorns are hollow.

[Esophagus]

Theory of evolution is just like it sounds, a theory. Although it makes more sense than parting seas, burning bushes, and carpenters dying for our sins, it hasn't been proved any better, and is probably less widely believed. That being said, I don't really believe in a god either.

Any higher power proves a limit to freedom. If there is a heaven and a hell, than the choices I make are going to be judged, and aren't simply their as mine to make. I believe there is no god as a simple hope for free will.

ie: One day I sat down with my parents to watch the amazing race. I show I never watch. But hey, quality time is quality time. Anywho, there was a pair of young christians fed up with their challenge of digging through the mud for a piece of paper. They simply unfolded some lawnchairs, sat in the mud, and said "if god wants me to find that piece of paper, it will come to me". Fuck that noise. If I want that piece of paper I'll try. If I fail, its not because god didn't want me to be the one to find it, its because I just wasn't in the right area of mud (or because I dont see myself digging through mud for paper for very long either).

In conclusion:
The meaning of life is simple. To live it.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Actually evolution does nothing to prove or disprove the existence of god. Evolution and god have absolutely nothing to do with eachother, the only reason they are brought together so often is because the religious people feel threatened by evolution without taking a chance to understand what it actually says- so they just automatically brand it has heresy. Evolution only describes how things work, not what started it all- which is where god comes in (or would, if you believed in god that is). they can exist together and separately, but only 1 of them has evidence.(guess which one.)

[Esophagus]

Actually, it is quite common for believers in god to not believe in evolution. In fact, I have a VERY christian cousin, who doesn't believe in dinosaurs, because god put animals and humans on the planet, and not dinosaurs. No mention of dinosaurs in the bible apparently is more believable than the thousands of archeologocial digs (CONSPIRACY!) and historical facts proving otherwise.

[headcase]

Looks like we have a "God of the Gaps" . Anything modern science can't explain, it must be God that did it. Genesis clearly states that God put Adam and Eve in Eden and the human race bred from them, which is all well and good until science proves otherwise. Then, "Genesis" is a metaphor for something else. Just like Ra was the Sun god and an eclipse was God showing his displeasure. Eventually, as science pregresses, there will be less and less gops for God to fill until he is another silly myth like Odin and Thor.

Indeed, the comment that the aim of life is "to live it", is a rephrasel of my own assertion. Survive, reproduce, advance.

[behindthemask]

My personal meaning of life is to have as much fun as possible. Yes I am a hedonist to the core and proud of it. I will not throw my life away doing things I dislike. Since we've only got one shot we need to make the best of it.

[SilentOctober]

Seriously, a general purpose to life is completyely pointless, I think. What does matter is the point of your life. Well, more to the point and I think you will all agree, whats the purpose of silent octobers life. I know, that was deep, but please, hold your applause...i can only hear so much of it in a day.









sorry....

long day, too much time on this computer. I don't know how so many people do it, but I think my eyes are going to pop out of my skull.