Principles of the Universe

[duiker]

In this thread, I want to begin a discussion about what individuals see as the basic principles of the universe. Kind of like Murphy's Law, but not.

For example, coming from a Christian point of view, one of the foundation cogs I see is tithing to a church. I've heard that the biggest and most successful companies do it, why? Because it works, and they are very successful. I believe it is a base concept that underlies everything we know. A principle.

For those who don't know, tithing is taking ten percent of everything you receive and giving it to the church (the collective people, not the building or the pope) to further the work of God.

Regardless of what your religion is, or whether you believe solely in science, tell us what non-scientific rules you can make out that run the universe.

[Armalite]

What do yo mean? What non-scientific rules run the universe? This is a gibberish question. You need to rephrase it. And by the way, tithing has no affect on the success of business enterprises.

[ComfortablyNumb]

In this thread, I want to begin a discussion about what individuals see as the basic principles of the universe. Kind of like Murphy's Law, but not.

For example, coming from a Christian point of view, one of the foundation cogs I see is tithing to a church. I've heard that the biggest and most successful companies do it, why? Because it works, and they are very successful. I believe it is a base concept that underlies everything we know. A principle..

For those who don't know, tithing is taking ten percent of everything you receive and giving it to the church (the collective people, not the building or the pope) to further the work of God.

What does tithing to a church have to do with how the universe is run? I mean, many people don't tithe to a church and nothing bad happens to us, and on the flip side many bad things happen to people that do tithe to a church. And armalite is right, what businesses use a tithe system? I don't know where you heard this, unless you are somehow construing employee stock options as a tithe. Other than churches the only tithe-like system I know of is run by the government, except they call it "taxes," And I really dont see why taxes should be considered as a "rule of the universe," especially because they don't really fix anything.

Regardless of what your religion is, or whether you believe solely in science, tell us what non-scientific rules you can make out that run the universe.

yeah, this question doesn't make sense -- in part of it you are asking people who only believe in science to give un-scientific answers to how the universe works, and are thereby discluding them from this topic. As for me, I dont believe any of these "unscientific rules" run the universe. They are jsut superstition, like Murphy's law, Astrology, religion,praying, this tithing nonsense you speak of-- none of them can be proven or even evidenced in any way that they have any affect on the universe, they all end up the same- sometimes it works, sometimes (most of the time) they dont.

[INCH06]

Nar I don't understand the question but I don't belive in god. Nor do i understand science. Like most 20 year olds i just go about my daily business not really caring how everything works, all i know is that without trees and insects everything else would pretty much be fucked. What does titche mean?

[Armalite]

I think you missed the point of my post Numb, tithing has no affect in that human rituals like tithing, worship, prayer, Tarot, faith healing, and any other form of superstition have never been shown to have any affect on anything.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

Basic Principles of the Universe? Excluding science? Damn.
That's crazy. As both Armalite and Numb point out, you're asking for something scientific that is not scientific.

You're asking something that is inherently contradictory to itself.

Science is a study of the nature of something... and you're looking for an answer that is non-scientific? The rules ARE its nature.

Furthermore, at this point in time and space, we can not fully comprehend the universe, and perhaps never will. Who the fuck can lay out the "rules" regarding the universe in a nutshell? The universe is such a large expanse and we still have so much to learn. You want us to ignore our own ignorance?..

..Perhaps you should bring the question back down to home, duiker. Perhaps something about mankind or the world. Not about the universe.
:wiggle:

[ComfortablyNumb]

I think you missed the point of my post Numb, tithing has no affect in that human rituals like tithing, worship, prayer, Tarot, faith healing, and any other form of superstition have never been shown to have any affect on anything.

Thats what I said.


I mean, many people don't tithe to a church and nothing bad happens to us, and on the flip side many bad things happen to people that do tithe to a church.

They are jsut superstition, like Murphy's law, Astrology, religion,praying, this tithing nonsense you speak of-- none of them can be proven or even evidenced in any way that they have any affect on the universe, they all end up the same- sometimes it works, sometimes (most of the time) they dont.

And I didn't mean to imply that these things actually sometimes work, they dont, it just sometimes happens that, by sheer coincidence, you get what you pray for. Sorry for any confusion.

[duiker]

Ok fellas, what I mean is you in no way have to believe what I've just said, and I am asking for a contradiction and a paradox.

Ok, another example? Wealth doesn't bring you happiness. You've all heard that one before. To tie in with that, why are starving Africans the happiest people in the world that I have met?

[Armalite]

And you missed the point yet again. That is a meaningless question that is so bogged down in shifting definitions, unmeasurable things, opinions, and unprovable claims that to try to discuss it in terms of logic is a waste of time. It is illogical. Your starving Africans may not represent other starving Africans, you have to define happiness, you have to prove that they meet that definition, that enough of them meet the definition to make them stand out from other groups who also meet your definition of happiness, and then you need to establish a causal link between the lack of funds and the supposed happiness. You are asking bullshit questions that cannot be answered logically, and expect us to treat them seriously? Also, these questions have nothing to do with principles of the universe. Pick up a physics book. Thats where you will find your universal principles.


edit


Okay, I thought I'd help you along. What you are really looking for is a philosophical principle that could be said to apply to most aspects of human experience. Here's one for ya to try on fer size.

Human can only think and feel. Feelings are those chemically triggered reactions that drive many of our day to day behaviours, and even influence our thoughts. They are quite devoid of reason and logic. Feelings are great for doing things like communicating with friends and family, deciding whether or not you are hungry, finding yourself attracted to one painting over another. But feelings are useless for problem solving. That requires thought. Thought is predicated on reason, a system of organization of thoughts that leads people to reach conclusions based on other things, like facts, opinions, observations, etc. The most refined form of reason is in turn logic. Logic is constant. It can even be expressed in mathematical symbols. Logic is so good at arriving at accurate conclusions that entire computer systems, scientific concepts, mathematical models, philosophies, and many other huge complex things can be supported solely by logic and a bit of evidence that is used to form the axioms need to create a logical syllogism. Any idea that cannot be expressed logically is illogical. It's simply outside of logic. For humans to attempt to discuss huge complex ideas with emotion is ludicrious. Emotions cannot arive at conclusions. Reason may work, but without the further refinment of logic, its a blunt tool at best. To attempt to examine anything without logic and expect an accurate conclusion is a crapshoot. To discuss concepts that cannot be examined by logic is simply to waste time and effort. If it is outside logic, it is outside the realm of logical thought, and as far as humans go, thats all the thought thats worth a fuck.

[duiker]

Your starving Africans may not represent other starving Africans, you have to define happiness, you have to prove that they meet that definition, that enough of them meet the definition to make them stand out from other groups who also meet your definition of happiness, and then you need to establish a causal link between the lack of funds and the supposed happiness. You are asking bullshit questions that cannot be answered logically, and expect us to treat them seriously? Also, these questions have nothing to do with principles of the universe. Pick up a physics book. Thats where you will find your universal principles.



If science doesn't have to be involved, don't invite him. Contradictions are technicalities of the English language. I am not giving or asking for explanations of anything. I'm putting forward casual observations that do not have to be analysed and studied logically or statistically. I don't need to link anything. Links are for definitions. I'm looking for options.

Armalite, to know something is not to understand it. But it doesn't stop you from trying, logically or illogically. You yourself and the other posters on this board were doing the same thing when you theorized on the purpose or meaning of life. Did you get one definite answer?
Logic led us to develop science. Science is what we use to explain the sphere of things. If you take science away, the sphere doesn't disappear. You can still look at it and speculate differently. That's harder if you have a very logical and scientifically oriented mind.

From an evidenced POV, I have met enough Africans, poor in society, to know that they are happier than any other geographical group of people that I have met. Rich black men in the same area, however, are not the same happy. They don't have the same life or spirit that is in the materially destitute people.
Happiness to me is being secure and calm in your mind despite whatever situation you may be in. Happy people have a full cup. You can tell.




Okay, I thought I'd help you along. What you are really looking for is a philosophical principle that could be said to apply to most aspects of human experience. Here's one for ya to try on fer size.

Human can only think and feel. Feelings are those chemically triggered reactions that drive many of our day to day behaviours, and even influence our thoughts. They are quite devoid of reason and logic. Feelings are great for doing things like communicating with friends and family, deciding whether or not you are hungry, finding yourself attracted to one painting over another. But feelings are useless for problem solving. That requires thought. Thought is predicated on reason, a system of organization of thoughts that leads people to reach conclusions based on other things, like facts, opinions, observations, etc. The most refined form of reason is in turn logic. Logic is constant. It can even be expressed in mathematical symbols. Logic is so good at arriving at accurate conclusions that entire computer systems, scientific concepts, mathematical models, philosophies, and many other huge complex things can be supported solely by logic and a bit of evidence that is used to form the axioms need to create a logical syllogism. Any idea that cannot be expressed logically is illogical. It's simply outside of logic. For humans to attempt to discuss huge complex ideas with emotion is ludicrious. Emotions cannot arive at conclusions. Reason may work, but without the further refinment of logic, its a blunt tool at best. To attempt to examine anything without logic and expect an accurate conclusion is a crapshoot. To discuss concepts that cannot be examined by logic is simply to waste time and effort. If it is outside logic, it is outside the realm of logical thought, and as far as humans go, thats all the thought thats worth a fuck.

My boss is just like you. We argue all the time. But he likes me. :smile:

[Armalite]

If science doesn't have to be involved, don't invite him. Contradictions are technicalities of the English language. I am not giving or asking for explanations of anything. I'm putting forward casual observations that do not have to be analysed and studied logically or statistically. I don't need to link anything. Links are for definitions. I'm looking for options.

This is gibberish. Don't invite "science", though you specified non-scientific answers only, YOU invited "science" when you asked for answers which can only come from "science". I think your "science" is what we would call logic. Science deals with evidence and data, logic deals with abstract concepts, whether they are based on anything concrete or not.

Contradictions are exactly what logic deals with. If a=b and b≠c then quite clearly a≠c. That is how logic operates. And a logical fallacy is a great way to unravel a concept. Not much of a technicality. It is in fact the most important part.

And then you shift around about links and definitions and options. Bullshit. If you intend to say that poverty results in happiness you need to come up with some causal link. How do you know the happiness isn't caused by something else? Maybe all the "Africans" you know are fond of a certain cartoon that they view immediatly prior to seeing you.

Armalite, to know something is not to understand it. But it doesn't stop you from trying, logically or illogically. You yourself and the other posters on this board were doing the same thing when you theorized on the purpose or meaning of life. Did you get one definite answer?
Logic led us to develop science. Science is what we use to explain the sphere of things. If you take science away, the sphere doesn't disappear. You can still look at it and speculate differently. That's harder if you have a very logical and scientifically oriented mind.

From an evidenced POV, I have met enough Africans, poor in society, to know that they are happier than any other geographical group of people that I have met. Rich black men in the same area, however, are not the same happy. They don't have the same life or spirit that is in the materially destitute people.
Happiness to me is being secure and calm in your mind despite whatever situation you may be in. Happy people have a full cup. You can tell.


Bullshit. Wtf is "the sphere of things"? And again, what does science have to do with this discussion? We are talking about logic and philosophy. And irregardless of what you mean by "science", if we take away our rational perspective we can indeed still come to conclusions about things. But how much are those going to be worth? It is very hard for a rational mind to blind itself, the act of linding itself being irrational and counter to its nature. Fuck your evidenced POV. Anecdotal evidence is irrelevent in any case, plus I just don't believe you. The way you talk about this doesn't lend you credibility. I've been poor and homeless, and let me tell you, it's not a fun time. Only retards who have never been in that situation can see it the way you do. As Marie Antoinette put it: Let them eat cake.

Fuck your secure mind. The blind, deaf and numb man has no need to fear mental unrest, for no outside stimulus can move him. I piss in your cup.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Wow, settle down peoples, no need for the personal attacks. Aside from that though, Armalite is right, you're not making any sense whatsoever, duiker. look:

If science doesn't have to be involved, don't invite him. Contradictions are technicalities of the English language. I am not giving or asking for explanations of anything. I'm putting forward casual observations that do not have to be analysed and studied logically or statistically. I don't need to link anything. Links are for definitions. I'm looking for options.



What the hell is this supposed to mean? Correct me if I'm wrong but since you said you are looking for answers that dont need any "links" or "evidence" or "explanations," aren't you saying that I can just pull some idea out of my ass and say thats how the universe works, and you wont argue with me? for example: I think the universe is run on the principlpe that when I wake up in the morning I have a boner. Now thats a casual observation that needs no evidence or explanation. It doesn't have to be analyzed or studied, it just is, but that doesn't mean that it has any effect whatsoever on the universe. In order to claim that something has an effect on the universe (which in turn implies that it has an effect on me) you had better have some evidence to back it up. When you dont have evidence and you start claiming that nonsense principles run the universe (tithing, prayer, other assorted bullshit) you end up with things like the dark ages and the crusades. Let me save you a little bit of time on another note-happiness. Happiness has nothing to do with one's possessions, lifestyle or any other crap that you can say applies to everyone. People choose to be or not to be happy wiht their current situation, it is irresponsible to say that anything will make anybody happy (unless of course we're talking about morphene, but thats a different definition of happiness) because the only way for someone to be happy is for them to choose to be happy-there is no one principle that will result in universal happiness for all, so quit looking for one. Everyone makes their own life and they and they alone choose what they want to do with it/feel about it.

[Heavy_'TalMeMan]

Damnit.

What do african people, happiness, and any other thing on earth have anything to do with the universe? Everything that we observe on a daily basis is for the better part restricted to our sorry little plot of time and space called "Earth" and what the hell makes you think that science aside, these have anything whatsoever to do with the the Universe? Earth is insignificant. We are insignificant. Our daily lives are insignificant in the grand shithole of the universe so STOP ASSUMING that things are what they seem.


Rich black men in the same area, however, are not the same happy. They don't have the same life or spirit that is in the materially destitute people.
And now you imply that Poverty= Happiness and Wealth = Unhappiness? You have absolutely no proof. So much bullshit..

Damn it duiker.
You throw logic out the window. And then you try to assert yourself into the position that what you're saying is logical.

Fuck your secure mind. The blind, deaf and numb man has no need to fear mental unrest, for no outside stimulus can move him. I piss in your cup.
That makes two of us.

[duiker]

Heheheheh. It doesn't take much. You all need to take a walk! I've never found such highly strung people in my life. Go get a glass of water:

I'll try one more time then I promise I'll leave it. I'm using analogies so get over it. I'm trying to put forward a picture but you're not seeing it because you're busy faulting how I'm trying to describe it. LOOK UP at the picture..... ach, I couldn't be bothered. Life's too short to be found trying to describe something to a bunch of closed-minded science prof's anyway.

That ought to give you something to pick over for the next few minutes. Enjoy!

[Armalite]

Indeed. The classic assertion that your opponent is dissenting from your view not because he has valid concerns over its merit, but because he is either ignorant or blind in some way towards it. Of course, you could just be wrong. Let's let Occam's Razor decide.

[headcase]

Duiker isn't asking for rules or laws. Quit being so defensive. He asked for casual observances. He even gave Murphy's Law as an example. Murphy's law isn't a law, it's a light hearted observation. Although the tithing example was a decidedly poor one.

Example: The only time I ever get my hair exactly the way I like it is when I run my fingers through it in the bathroom before I go to bed.

[AnemicFairy]

Regardless of what your religion is, or whether you believe solely in science, tell us what non-scientific rules you can make out that run the universe.

The question strikes me as somewhat meaningless. The universe is solely run by the laws of nature. As for human societies, the rules tend to be rather arbitrary.

I personally follow the rule of Lord Voldemort in the Harry Potter books: "There is no good or evil. There is only power."

[headcase]

Duiker isn't asking for rules or laws. Quit being so defensive. He asked for casual observances. He even gave Murphy's Law as an example. Murphy's law isn't a law, it's a light hearted observation. Although the tithing example was a decidedly poor one.

Example: The only time I ever get my hair exactly the way I like it is when I run my fingers through it in the bathroom before I go to bed.

It was badly worded, but if you were to take a deep breath and read his post again you'd understand it better.