I'm Not Voting in '08

[dylanrush08]

I'm not voting in 2008.

Chances are, I will be able to choose between two people I disagree with, or a handful of assholes who will never win anyway.

Realistically, who I vote for will make no difference on who will win.

And matter who wins, it will be a candidate who will try his hardest to enforce his views on the rest of his jurisdiction. Fuck that! Leave us alone!

Make a statement in '08 by not voting!


:vote4me: :bryce:

[Esophagus]

Make a statement in '08 by letting the mindless morons do the voting! Good plan. Or you could vote for whoever seems even likely to initiate change. Even if too much good doesnt come out of it, you can still fight your personal battle of spreading the word on what YOU think should happen. Stick to it. Dont give up.

[Scamula]

I vote just because it's my civic duty. I really don't think what I'm doing matters though.

[Armalite]

Voting is pointless. Giant Douche vs. Turd Sandwich

[gbu-36]

Im pretty much a one issue voter, that issue being guns. But this go around it certainly looks like Im fucked either way I vote. Suppose its time to start buying up lower receivers and parts kits =\

[odin_dax]

It's stupid to vote on a person just on one issue. That's how panderers get in, then they do shit.

On the topic at hand, voting is a choice, but it's also your civic duty. To say you're not going to vote because your choice will never get elected is one of the dumbest statements I've read regarding this issue. First, google all the elections and issues decided by one vote. Secondly, if everybody actually DID vote for an independent candidate, that candidate would win. I don't get why people are so stupid to vote only Democrat or Republican. That's why our system is so fucked up as it is, and why both parties are really one. They pander to the same crowd, talk the same game, and do the same thing, nothing or make it worse. VOTE INDEPENDENT!

[Eulux]

I'm not voting in 2008.

Chances are, I will be able to choose between two people I disagree with, or a handful of assholes who will never win anyway.

Realistically, who I vote for will make no difference on who will win.

And matter who wins, it will be a candidate who will try his hardest to enforce his views on the rest of his jurisdiction. Fuck that! Leave us alone!

Make a statement in '08 by not voting!

This is by and far one of the most moronic things I have heard in a while...and that's saying something. Instead of perhaps boycotting elections, why not try and educate yourself on third party politics.

You do realize that many reps and dems rely on third party voters not to vote? They try and put this stigma on not voting for the two main candidates...

"by voting for your candidate of choice who never had a chance in hell of winning, instead of voting for our candidate whom out of the two main parties came the closest to representing your personal beliefs, that we lost?!?! Might as well not even vote..."

follow?

it's people like you that keep our country a two party system...

[Armalite]

Actually, a lot of money is spent by the major parties to impress exactly the opposite idea. You must vote, it's your duty, and the independant may just win. But he won't and even if he did, it wouldn't affect policy in any substantial way. You see, the driving force behind politics is and has always been economics. Without the desire or need to control the distribution of goods and services, government would never have arisen in the first place. No one is free from the corruption in the political process, and once a well meaning politician is eleceted, he is still constrained by such corruption that he will never affect any real change. Not to mention the the political model of a republic is bankrupt in the first place. The real crux of the matter is that you are voting on representatives who you hope will reflect your areas views on issues, instead of electing delegates who act on instructions given by people at lower levels of government. Even if the guy you want to win does, you have no way of influencing the actual implentation of public policy. Therefore, win or lose, your vote is meaningless. Civic duty my ass.

[Eulux]

note how I never said anything about civic duty...it's your own choice on whether or not to vote, it's not mandatory...

Even if the guy you want to win does, you have no way of influencing the actual implentation of public policy. Therefore, win or lose, your vote is meaningless.

I just can't help but think that is exactly what their end goal is armalite...to get us to think like that.

[ThePrincessOfScam]

The voters dicide nothing the people who count the votes dicide everything.

^Stalin

[odin_dax]

I don't care what the vote counters dicide, but the voters do DECIDE which demagogue they want in office.

I believe most politicians to be honest, but real men don't seek power, they have it thrust upon them. It's a real quote... Anyway, all the senior office holders control the Hill, so newbies can't do much, and in order for them to do so, they have to play ball and work their way up (to some extent). The Hill is probably less corrupt than city officials, lobbyists, union leaders, and state senators. San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Washington DC are notorious for corruption.

[Armalite]

I think what they want us to think is that our votes matter. That is a key element in the accomodation process that keeps repression intact. If everyone realizes that voting and "democracy" as it is represented by the American model is an inherently repressive and deceptive system they would stop voting and start making changes. Voting just reinforces the idea that our system is ok because we have some small measure of power. In reality the people have no power to affect the laws and foreign policy of our nation.

[ThePrincessOfScam]

I don't care what the vote counters dicide, but the voters do DECIDE which demagogue they want in office.

I believe most politicians to be honest, but real men don't seek power, they have it thrust upon them. It's a real quote... Anyway, all the senior office holders control the Hill, so newbies can't do much, and in order for them to do so, they have to play ball and work their way up (to some extent). The Hill is probably less corrupt than city officials, lobbyists, union leaders, and state senators. San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Washington DC are notorious for corruption.

HAHAHHAAAA. Do you KNOW ho wmany votes were omitted in 00? Voters can vote their asses off, they dont care, white house has an agenda, and that is to keep the rich in and their agenda as no.1.

Every fucking person thought Gore was gunna win, HE SHOULD HAVE won. Every station were swaying it in his favor, the statistics, the COUNT. Meanwhile Bush's dumbass cousin dicided to mix it up and tell the fox news network to send it in Bush's direction and fox is controlled by 3 major world dominant corporations, guess who won? Not the person people voted majority for... But the person who was enough of a puppet/conservative to make sure war, oil and money was at the top of the list.


CORPORATIONS CONTROL GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT PUPPETS THE CORPORATIONS NEEDS OVER THE PUBLIC.

And the scary part is... Oil controls everything right now. Tkae everything, every last blade of fucking grass and trace it up the hills of power and meaning and you will find oil at the top. Take government, trace up the lines of power and global dominance and you will find oil.

SO one personm rules oil... who is this person? GOD??! Pretty much he is right now. But anyway...


Acorrding to your theory, bush was voted in twice... Making america the stupidest country on the planet... Hmmmm... Possible to a very high extent.

But I would not like to think there is a chunk of land with a lot of weponry and power with 300 million idiots in there.

So I will just take facts.. more facts.... Noam chomsky and Michel Moores ideas for my gras.


In an Idealisic world, the people do control the votes, but in a realistic world, oil is controling the market, which controls the corporations, which controls the media, which controls the government, which controls the people. And these bracket markets (media, oil, corporate presidents and CEOs, the market and the government) are going to make sure their agenda is no.1... and what is that agenda? to maintain global domianace. Fair voting dicidides NOTHING. And means nothing to them.

HELL! The USA issued a global poilicy called "the imperial grand stratagy" CLEARLY stating that the USA is going to do anything to maintain global dominance.

I will find the link and get back to you.

-Bella

[Stone]

The main goal of the US Gov is to make sure Lincoln Burrows dies!

[odin_dax]

I love Prison Break...

Anyway, gotta be careful when you read Chomsky, or anything. Taking someone's word without your own research to see if that person is right doesn't make you credible or intelligent. ;-)

Besides, Michale Moore is a big, fat buffoon. Really, he's a propagandist. His "documentary" Fahrenheit 9/11 was thoroughly debunked. That man has NO credibility whatsoever!

[ThePrincessOfScam]

And the person who debuncked him was a conservative. LMFAO

But I do do my own research, it is always really interesting for me to read/watch these people tho. Moore did wrong with his tv series, but I liked some of his movies.

They always offer something, Chomsky is very awear of what is going on around him and puts a very intelligent eye to world issues.

[odin_dax]

Maybe the person who did debunk Moore was a conservative, but that has nothing to do with the validity of his counterarguments.

[ThePrincessOfScam]

A lie told oftan enough becomes thr truth...

And a lie told in favor of the ones currently holding power is supreme over the masses. :sly:

Lets just agree to disagree, because a lefty and a righty going at it will result in nothing but a rediculous argument, and I dont want to be knew on the board and already have an argument record.

[odin_dax]

In other words, you didn't see Fahren-Hype 9/11.

Who's arguing?

[ThePrincessOfScam]

I did see it. which is why I brough up the part about lying and how it was puley pro-saving the governments ass. But I guess you didnt read it properly.

That entire movie was bullshit, and I wont defend Moore but at least he isnt a puppet for the USA.

[Scamula]

I don't care what the vote counters dicide, but the voters do DECIDE which demagogue they want in office.

I believe most politicians to be honest, but real men don't seek power, they have it thrust upon them. It's a real quote... Anyway, all the senior office holders control the Hill, so newbies can't do much, and in order for them to do so, they have to play ball and work their way up (to some extent). The Hill is probably less corrupt than city officials, lobbyists, union leaders, and state senators. San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Washington DC are notorious for corruption.

"I believe most politicians to be honest"? :wtf: hahahahahahhahahahahahahaha. I spent a good 5 minutes cracking up over that one. Honest politicians? :laugh2: I needed a laugh today. Boy oh boy. You're entitled to your opinions but let me give you mine....Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?". And Romans 3:10-16 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery [are] in their ways.." I don't believe the Bible is all true but I believe they had it covered when they spoke of human nature. Humanity is pretty rotten and corrupt and this goes for both genders, all generations that have ever lived or will live and all races. And when someone gets some power, whether it is thrust upon them or whether they've been running after it all of their lives, all hell breaks loose. Honest politicians....good God almighty. :biggrin:

[Eulux]

The voters dicide nothing the people who count the votes dicide everything.

^Stalin

false quote actually stated by an american gangster...

I think what they want us to think is that our votes matter. That is a key element in the accomodation process that keeps repression intact. If everyone realizes that voting and "democracy" as it is represented by the American model is an inherently repressive and deceptive system they would stop voting and start making changes. Voting just reinforces the idea that our system is ok because we have some small measure of power. In reality the people have no power to affect the laws and foreign policy of our nation.

meer...many flaws.

1. If they wanted us to think that votes matter, then we would actually have something beyond a two party system.

2. Nowhere in the beginning of america...were we deemed to be a true democracy...republic. hence nothing is being represented, it's just a common misconception by youngsters these days...why back in my day we tattooed the constitution on our ass....but my point is no deception on that part, or repression.

3. if people actually tried a different tactic such as voting, then maybe changes would happen.

4. voting does not reinforce this belief, but rather the acts of both not voting, and apathy. the exact kind of apathy that you are generating. if we wanted a true sense of power, we would take it. the fact remains that most of us like being told what we like and believe...

5. as far as us supposedly having no power...that's exactly what they want you to think.

HAHAHHAAAA. Do you KNOW ho wmany votes were omitted in 00? Voters can vote their asses off, they dont care...blah blah blah

you, my friend, are a sound bite and a moron. try debating with a principle, not just with angst.

I love Prison Break...

Anyway, gotta be careful when you read Chomsky, or anything. Taking someone's word without your own research to see if that person is right doesn't make you credible or intelligent. ;-)

Besides, Michale Moore is a big, fat buffoon. Really, he's a propagandist. His "documentary" Fahrenheit 9/11 was thoroughly debunked. That man has NO credibility whatsoever!...

Maybe the person who did debunk Moore was a conservative, but that has nothing to do with the validity of his counterarguments.

I fuckin love you.

and btw, I am probably the person whom is the farthest "left" on this board...so there's no left vs right with me, I'm just not dumb enough to fall into categorization...

I don't believe the Bible is all true but I believe they had it covered when they spoke of human nature.

even so...most of the bible was written to scare the masses into following a strict ideology that made them easier to manipulate, but that's another debate for another forum...

yar. rambling on wine and other fine spirits since 1997.

[ThePrincessOfScam]

:bryce:




I just dont like to have arguments with people, I am strong about my beleifs and I have no problem with people having their own ideas. NONE whatsoever. Just dont fucking push your ass on me, just for the sake of trying to say you are right or dissin someone else. Because when two people disagree, they are strong about their ideas, and they are comming from opposite sides of the fence, it turns into nothing but a power struggle. and I have no reason to want other people to agree with me, I just want to state my ideas without being shit on.

So all the assholes who want to have arguments with me can keep their egos in their pants. Im not here for that. If I wanted to argue, I would head into a conservative congress meeting here in Vic.

[ComfortablyNumb]

He isn't shitting on your ideas (well, maybe, but...) he's just pointing out that your beliefs aren't based on good logic, or even facts for that matter- but rather "garden-variety-read-some-lefty-literature" teenage angst. Sure, you can have these beliefs, and nobody here can change that for you, but you shouldn't come here expecting to pass off opinions based on piss-poor logic as legitimate, I mean, there are plenty of perfectly good reasons to dislike/hate the bush administration/all government, you dont need to resort to spouting out stereotypical far-left right-wing-conspiracy bullshit like chomsky and moore. It's not about egos, or a power struggle, its about correcting an uppity teenage girl who shoots her mouth off.:wiggle:

[Stone]

It's not arguing, it's discussing. Nobody is forcing you to take part in the discussion and if you don't want to see your beliefs and views get knocked (which happens to everybody here) then don't post in the thread.

Having people challenging your beliefs and views will do one of three things. If you are proved wrong then will you now know what is right. If you prove the opposer wrong then your belief is strengthened and you can feel proud. The third thing is that neither is proved wrong (lets say as in debating the existence of God).

To be honest, with an outcome of number one and two, you will benefit. From number three you leave the discussion the same as you went in. So in essence, you always win.

From my experience the people who don't want to 'argue' or discuss (not just on the internet, but in real life too) are the people who have either a very shaky understanding in their beliefs or have secret doubts but are in denial.

[ThePrincessOfScam]

Ok then, I really dont like doing this but whatever:

false quote actually stated by an american gangster...


"It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. "

Joseph Stalin (cited from: Wikipedia, brainyquote.com, thinkexist.com, quotationspage.com, worldofquotes.com, quotedb.com, among others. An opposing site votefraud.org, argues the validity of the quote, but recognizes that many people have quoted it, therefor actually discovering the true origin of the quote is virtually impossible... I will continue to look into the site but I would like to say that anyone else saying this quote as origin is news to me!)




3. if people actually tried a different tactic such as voting, then maybe changes would happen.


And has no one been voting? I am confused now... So.. these numbers are total bullshit?

http://www.idea.int/vt/country_view.cfm?CountryCode=US#total


And these ones too?


http://elections.gmu.edu/turnout_rates_graph.htm

That the voting count has actually gone UP?






4. voting does not reinforce this belief, but rather the acts of both not voting, and apathy. the exact kind of apathy that you are generating. if we wanted a true sense of power, we would take it. the fact remains that most of us like being told what we like and believe...


Whatever, It can be argued from Freud to Ghandi about indoctrination. But you havnt gone around and actually spoken and studied everyone in the world, have you? So can you form an opinion or (as you did) state as a FACT? hell nuuuu! What you did was take the words

"most of us"

and add your own opinion.

I thin kthat with the constand media mindfucks we are being sucked in to beleiving cirtain things, but with all the political/social bullshit out there it is hard to beleive anything nowadays.

And thats what I beleive. LOL



5. as far as us supposedly having no power...that's exactly what they want you to think


Yes we do have power, which is why so many great peopel could start revolutions, and wake us all up. They do want us to think we are powerless, because if we were to have power it would threaten THEIR power. But all it takes is the will of one. and we all might just be saved.





you, my friend, are a sound bite and a moron. try debating with a principle, not just with angst.


Angst like this? :fing26: Or like this message?





even so...most of the bible was written to scare the masses into following a strict ideology that made them easier to manipulate, but that's another debate for another forum...

yar. rambling on wine and other fine spirits since 1997.


Yeah, the bible has a load of shit in it. I was raised catholic, but I seriously wont blindly listen to whatever the bible says. I have my own beleifs about God, but like you said, another debate for another forum.

and is the wine and spirits why you are being a compelat dumbwad?



He isn't shitting on your ideas (well, maybe, but...) he's just pointing out that your beliefs aren't based on good logic, or even facts for that matter- but rather "garden-variety-read-some-lefty-literature" teenage angst.

And is HIS logic to be debated? And I see no facts in what he is saying, only opinion. So even if I was saying my opinion, at least I recognize it was an opinion. I saw no facts in what he said, maybe some garden-variety-retarded-combacks-supported-by-popularity.

If he disagrees with me, I am cool. But immediatly dismissing me and telling me I am wrong does not make me wrong, because I know quite a few people who would agree with me and disagree with him. But Doesnt make me RIGHT, per se. It makes us disagree but it doesnt make one part right and one wrong.


I mean, there are plenty of perfectly good reasons to dislike/hate the bush administration/all government, you dont need to resort to spouting out stereotypical far-left right-wing-conspiracy bullshit like chomsky and moore.


again, YOUR opinion that they are bullshit, I think Chomsky is credible and Moore is a gateway, but because I like them does not mean you need to hate, and diss my ideas and me.



It's not about egos, or a power struggle, its about correcting an uppity teenage girl who shoots her mouth off.


And do you think this uppity teenage girl needs to know her place? Fuck you and that.



Having people challenging your beliefs and views will do one of three things. If you are proved wrong then will you now know what is right. If you prove the opposer wrong then your belief is strengthened and you can feel proud. The third thing is that neither is proved wrong (lets say as in debating the existence of God).


I think it is the third one, Stone, ty.


To be honest, with an outcome of number one and two, you will benefit. From number three you leave the discussion the same as you went in. So in essence, you always win.

and I want to take it that way, Stone. It all depends on if he/they want to. We could take three and run right now and both have our beleifs, and a potential positive relationship on this board, but whatever, I will just advocat for three.


From my experience the people who don't want to 'argue' or discuss (not just on the internet, but in real life too) are the people who have either a very shaky understanding in their beliefs or have secret doubts but are in denial.

I have yahoo and AIM.... I like to save shit like this for the IM, because it is real time and there isnt a lot lost in the time gap. Feel free to add me if ya wanna discuss this. I am fine in my beleifs, I just think forums are pointless in discussing beleifs, for great chatting it is awsome, but for debating there is lots lost in the time gap. U have no problem tlaking about them on IM.


Thanks Stone.

OH! My bagel is ready! Byeeeee :sgrin:

[odin_dax]

You're definitely entitled to your opinion, but on the subject I limited myself to in this discussion, basing your arguments on Michael Moore is about the dumbest thing you can do, and yes, his statements were thoroughly debunked. He's a propagandist (not a good one at that), and the fact you idolize him doesn't help your clarity or objectivity.

That's all I have to say further on the matter. On a side note, I'm glad you're engaging in such discussion, since most your age do not. However, I fear you'll turn into one of those fem-nazis. Don't believe everything professors tell you. They have no more authority than the bum on the street on such matters.

School system sucks!

[ThePrincessOfScam]

I dont go to school, I got my GED+2 already. I dropped out and finished at through a programe at home. I hate the school system, all the fucking cliques and invisible rules of the system. Dont assume shit, buddy.



I stopped trusting the school system after around grade 4, btw.



I wasnt basing anything on MM and that is where you guys are wrong. I was saying he is a good gateway and has made some good films but I dont idolize him, I like his work. You guys really cant read or process this, can you? I like Chomsky and Marx more then him, anyday.


MM is good for people who want to take a few steps into politics, because it gets them angry and motivated to do something. So... *shrugs* I dunno, I just think it is pretty cool that he makes movies and helps people out and all that. I dont like his patriotism to the "idealistic, bush-free" America, tho. If your going to be against something, be against it for christs sake. :tongue:


But maybe now you guys get it. Fuckinhell...

[odin_dax]

I dont go to school, I got my GED+2 already. I dropped out and finished at through a programe at home. I hate the school system, all the fucking cliques and invisible rules of the system. Dont assume shit, buddy.

That explains a lot.



I stopped trusting the school system after around grade 4, btw.

Because you never fit in, I take it. Oh, sorry, another assumption.


I wasnt basing anything on MM and that is where you guys are wrong. [/QUOTE

Nobody said you were basing anything on Moore's statements, but you did claim he speaks the truth and you like his work. I simply responded with the FACT his work is false propaganda. If you simply are trying to backpeddle, trying to save face, that's fine, but there is no reason to bring up Michael Moore, as you have, unless it was simply an appeal to authority. No, you're not using Moore's statements to back up your claim, but you used the person to make one.

[QUOTE=ThePrincessOfScam]
I was saying he is a good gateway and has made some good films

A propagandist isn't a good "gateway."

You guys really cant read or process this, can you?

I think it's you assuming things and responding by your incorrect interpretation... Or maybe you're too defensive.


MM is good for people who want to take a few steps into politics, because it gets them angry and motivated to do something. So... *shrugs* I dunno, I just think it is pretty cool that he makes movies and helps people out and all that. I dont like his patriotism to the "idealistic, bush-free" America, tho. If your going to be against something, be against it for christs sake. :tongue:

At least here you're beginning to speak clearly, but maybe you should have trusted the school system to teach you the difference between "your" and "you're."


But maybe now you guys get it. Fuckinhell...

Get what?

[ComfortablyNumb]

Dear, please dont hide behind the veil of "opinion." Just because you say something is your opinion, doesn't automatically make your ideas immune to critiscism. I could go around saying that, in my opinion, 2+2=5. sure, I am allowed to have that "opinion," but I wouldnt be able to go around spouting it off and expecting people to respect my position. You spouting rhetoric about voting not doing anything, implying that the bush administration and conservatives in general are somehow conspiring/have conspired to hijack the country, and referring to people like Chomsky and Marx for reinforcement for your beliefs, despite the fact that the overwhelming amount of evidence and facts point to the contrary on all of those issues is the same as you saying that your opinion is "2+2=5."


And do you think this uppity teenage girl needs to know her place? Fuck you and that.
Thats not what I said is it? I didnt say you need to know your place, hell, I think its a good thing that someone your age is even talking about things like this- you just need to calm down and think about what you are saying and the implications thereof before you say them-which you aren't doing. You also need to learn to defend yourself from critiscism with something other than "well it's my opinion, so you can go fuck yourselves."- that is something that stupid, uppity teenage girls say because they can't think of anything remotely smart to defend their position.


And is HIS logic to be debated? And I see no facts in what he is saying, only opinion. So even if I was saying my opinion, at least I recognize it was an opinion. I saw no facts in what he said, maybe some garden-variety-retarded-combacks-supported-by-popularity.
No, his logic is nto to be debated. Logic itself is not to be debated, their are only 2 kinds- good and bad. you, my dear, utilize very poor logic, seeing as how your arguments consist merely of a loose string of conclusions with nothing other than references to chomsky, marx and michael moore (all of whom's ideas concerning politics and government would harm the country, and humanity in general much more than anything the bush administration could muster up if implemented) to back them up, without any sort of premises for your arguments, and without even the slightest consideration of any evidence that doesn't fit the way you want to see the world. the reason his logic is good and yours is bad is because youa re doing two different things- you are making claims, and he is refuting your claims. you have the burden of proof in this situation, not he, nor I, unless we make seperate claims.- and I missed any claims that I made without providing evidence, then you can point them out to me and I will gladly support them for you.
- oh, and by the way, just because ou know some people that agree with you doesnt prove jack shit you retard, it only proves that you associate with people that share your beliefs- just like every other goddamn person on this planet.

again, YOUR opinion that they are bullshit, I think Chomsky is credible and Moore is a gateway, but because I like them does not mean you need to hate, and diss my ideas and me.
except their ideas are based on faulty logic, and would be detrimental to society, and especially individuals- the rights of whom outweigh the needs or concerns of society no matter what you say about it-if you disagree then you have a malformed conept of a "right." And I wasn't "hating" on you. I dont hate you, I jsut disagree strongly, and, unlike you, have opinions with sturdy foundations.


I dont go to school, I got my GED+2 already. I dropped out and finished at through a programe at home. I hate the school system, all the fucking cliques and invisible rules of the system. Dont assume shit, buddy.
so you are fighting the system that you hate by secluding yourself from it and ignoring any possible benefits rather than learning how to live with it and use it to your advantage. aren't you a clever one...

I wasnt basing anything on MM and that is where you guys are wrong. I was saying he is a good gateway and has made some good films but I dont idolize him, I like his work. You guys really cant read or process this, can you? I like Chomsky and Marx more then him, anyday.
what a trade, the fat dumb baffoon, for the pretentious leftist extremists who think they know what is better for me than I do. I will give you that Moore is a good filmmaker-despite disagree adamantly with him, his movies are undeniably entertaining- but the fact is that he is a moron, and knows nothing about how government works, or should work for that matter.



hmm, well thats about it. sorry if i seem kinda dickish or mean or snobbish in my post- im kinda drunk and really tired. peace nigs.

[ThePrincessOfScam]

:nana: Whatever, you asshole, I barley read your post.

I stand by my opinions, I dont care if you have a problem with it.

Everyone has their owns opinions, you stupid bitch. Yours, happens to be wrong in my book, mine happens to be wrong in your book. I am not going to side with you jut because YOU think I am wrong.


So please go back home, let your daddy have your ass and keep your hillbilly opinions to your goddamn self, and I will keep my opinions to myself.


:asshole:

PS: When has being an uppity teenage girl been a bad thing? lol

PPS: When I left the system, I wasnt trying to isolate myself, I just didnt want to get caught up in the bullshit there. Plus, the school system isnt "THE system" it is mearly a reflection of the government trying to indoctrinate kids into a corporate society. I am not sure if there is a single system. So many world-dominance agendas, so little time.



LOGIC = :welcome:

I mean, wheres the logic in allowing a mokey to govern a world power and letting said monkey kill thousands of people? Where is the logic in murdering for oil? Where is the logic in letting millions die from starvation while corporations gather so much money they dont know what do with it? Where is the logic in having breakfast for dinner???? There is no logic in the world these days! LOL. I love it. I want to mate with it. lol.




I am against everything from Islam to America, for reasons varying from human rights to being anti-corporate-angenda.


But many people disagree with me, and many agree with me. I dont care, even if they agreed with me. It would always just be my opinion and ME!

YAY ME!

Go team M-O-I!

:D I have a job, a great BF, a home and I am pretty damn well off for my age. So I will see you all in hell!


lol.


And to the guy before you,

A GED+2 is a high school equivilent, you idiot. So ironic that you were dissing my education and then you dont even know what a GED is. Long story short I dropped out, found a GED programe, passed and now by law I have a peice of paper saying I have passed High School. Fun, But the test was hella hard.

[ComfortablyNumb]

:nana: Whatever, you asshole, I barley read your post.

I stand by my opinions, I dont care if you have a problem with it.

You see, this is exactly the kind of response I was talking about. it isnt intelligent, it isnt cute, all it does is make you look like a retard.- dont take that the wrong way, I'm sure you are a smart person, I'm not debating that and I'm not trying to dinigrate or belittle you in any way, and Im sorry if you interpreted it that way, its just that the way you conduct yourself is immature and unfit for any sort of intelligent debate- and dont say some crap about not coming here to debate- if you dont want to debate then dont post in a forum full of opinionated people who enjoy debating- common sense.

Everyone has their owns opinions, you stupid bitch. Yours, happens to be wrong in my book, mine happens to be wrong in your book. I am not going to side with you jut because YOU think I am wrong.
Ok, fine. You can have your opinion, I wasn't trying to change that, I was just pointing out that the foundations upon which your opinions rest are very shaky, if not nonexistent, and since you haven't even made an attempt to show otherwise, I'll leave it at that and assume that I won that little argument, because, despite the fact that you disagree with my opinions (which I'm not entirely sure I stated in the first place...) my opinions have the benefit of being founded in facts and reason, unlike yours which are founded in emotion and passion. Just know, that upon holding your opinions so firmly in the face of logic and facts, you are exactly the same as the religious right that you hate. EXACTLY THE SAME.


So please go back home, let your daddy have your ass and keep your hillbilly opinions to your goddamn self, and I will keep my opinions to myself.
I notice you like insulting me rather than trying to argue with my opinions. very cute. Its called an ad hominem attack and is a form of fallacious reasiong. By doing you you are only digging yourself into a deeper hole of incredibility.(as in incredible vs. credible.) And since when was being reasonable and rational a hillbilly opinion? there aren't very many hillbillies here in southern california, though there are plenty of other retards- however most of them have ideas closer to yours my dear.


:asshole:
and she does it again.

PS: When has being an uppity teenage girl been a bad thing? lol
its not a bad thing, its jsut something that you should recognize because it is tainting your opinions-whether you think so or not.

PPS: When I left the system, I wasnt trying to isolate myself, I just didnt want to get caught up in the bullshit there. Plus, the school system isnt "THE system" it is mearly a reflection of the government trying to indoctrinate kids into a corporate society. I am not sure if there is a single system. So many world-dominance agendas, so little time.
Please think about what you are saying before you say it. 1. Schools are not trying to indoctrinate children into "corporate America"- in case you haven't noticed, the vast majority (about 90%) of people in the teaching field are liberals- like you- and, for the most part, they are not fans of coporate america. 2. What you said about "So many world-dominance agendas, so little time." if you think about this for a second, assuming this statement is true, then you will see that if this is true, we have nothing to worry about because since there are so many different world dominance agendas, they will invariably get in eachother's way, causing a sort of world-dominance gridlock. You should jsut learn to accept that there will always be people trying to gain more and mroe power, and there is nothing you can do about it- but rather you should learn how to benefit from their greed. The fact is there is no stopping greed, or thrist for power- these things are just what humans do, and that is why marx's ideas do not work when put into use (i.e. USSR, N. Korea, Cuba, China- pre-1990's (theyvbe been doing pretty well since they adopted a more capitalist system and ditched marxism))- marxism assumes that people are good, and that people are willing to help others despite what detriment that will cause to themselves, which is nothing but nonsense upon stilts. 3. I still stand by my previous response on this subject- rather than accepting that there are insurmountable evils in the system, and trying to find a way to benefit from them, you are shunning them, and not recognizing anything that they have to offer, which will do nothing but cause your own failure in life.- sure, there are some people that do all right with your mindset, but that vast majority do not.

LOGIC = :welcome:

I mean, wheres the logic in allowing a mokey to govern a world power and letting said monkey kill thousands of people? Where is the logic in murdering for oil? Where is the logic in letting millions die from starvation while corporations gather so much money they dont know what do with it? Where is the logic in having breakfast for dinner???? There is no logic in the world these days! LOL. I love it. I want to mate with it. lol.

Wow, good job, you just showed me that you have absolutely no concept of what I was talking about. nothing in that paragraph is even remotely relevent or analagous to anything that I said, you let your emotion override your good logic and thought that I was trying to belittle you or offend you, which I wasn't, I was stating facts. And you expect to be taken seriously...




I am against everything from Islam to America, for reasons varying from human rights to being anti-corporate-angenda.
fair enough, though incredibly vague and unsupported.


But many people disagree with me, and many agree with me. I dont care, even if they agreed with me. It would always just be my opinion and ME!
this is true, however you should learn how to think critically and evaluate your own opinions, because I can guarantee that your own opinions contradict themselves. There's also nothing wrong with considering other people's opinions that differ from your own, after all, if your opinion is right, then considering other opinions and relevant facts and logic will have absolutely no effect on your opinions- they will emerge unscathed, however I suspect you realize this and therefore avoid any critical thinking because it will undoubtedly tear your opinions to shreds.

YAY ME!
the first intelligent thing you've said, however this statement conflicts very strongly with your marxist ideology, and would generally fit closer to my standpoint (generally libertarian):sly:


:D I have a job, a great BF, a home and I am pretty damn well off for my age. So I will see you all in hell!
Good for you, despite your faulty opinions you seem to have made well with them, and, regardless of whether you or I is right, you have uindeniably at least begun to make something of yourself and that deserves to be commended- whther or not I agree with you is irrelevant, because all that matters (at least when it comes to one's personal life) is that you are happy with your life and yourself. good job.


A GED+2 is a high school equivilent, you idiot. So ironic that you were dissing my education and then you dont even know what a GED is. Long story short I dropped out, found a GED programe, passed and now by law I have a peice of paper saying I have passed High School. Fun, But the test was hella hard.
Most of my friends have this same deal, and I must say, I kinda wish I opted for it, rather than completing high school the slow way, but at least it did let me get straight into 4-year college rather than transferring from a JC, however had I done it your way I would currently be one year closer to law school than I am.


Ok, now, Im well aware that you probably will not read all or even most of my post. But just consider this: The reason that I am so adamantly against your opinion is because, when I was your age, I held the exact same viewpoint( you know, "go marx," "boy chomsky is a smart fella", "damned corporations" etc. ). Reading your posts is like reading my own from several years ago, and I must say, it is a sad sight. The only piece of advice, which I suspect you will dismiss as me being an asshole, but Ill still give it to you- is to realize the difference between What Is and What Ought To Be. There are a lot of things in this world that should be(such as people being humanitarian, economic justice, general sense of caring among people in a society etc.), but we can only work with what is(people want to succeed, even if that means at the expense of their neighbor) Sure, we can try our best to fill in that gap, but you must also realize that that gap is impossible to fill all the way- and attempting to do so is nothing mroe that an exercise in futility-like sysiphus.

Right, now go ahead and call me a dick, and call me close-minded, or whatever you want. When you're ready to have an intelligent discussion, Ill be here waiting.

[ThePrincessOfScam]

ok!



You are a dick, lol... You expect to be called it because you take every lil chance you can to slip in an insult and THAT is pathetic. At least I come out and just say,

"You're a cunt bitch"

And You are indeed a cunt bitch.



lol, I dont care to have a conversation with you, It is a waste of my time. I DID, at some point, I will say that much, but you have proved to me what a useless chat you would be.

I will always have my ideas, you or no you. lol. The people who I do talk to understand my ideas, because almost always they think of me what you think of me at first, but when I do dicide to talk to them, they totally get it,

but I am not into that anymore, I have just realised that everyone is going to critisize me, but the people I do find worthwhile to talk too will always understand me and where I am comming from. And I have talked to quite a few people in my day. So I am retired. lol.


And everything about me is a contradiction. I am compleatly lost. But then again, I am 15. I have lotsa time, and because I started my life life early I have enough time for myself in my future to find what I want.

All I know is that all of my beleifs are there for a reason, and they are all deep within me, so really I dont care if you dont get it, you are not my main priority.

:wiggle:

[ComfortablyNumb]

dont call me a cunt bitch, you're a cunt bitch, bitch. :lmao: seriously though, just relax a little bit, I wasnt trying to insult you, I was just insulting your beliefs...:wiggle:- guess that can kinda be the same thing though... oh well though, you dont have to argue with me if you dont want to, and you certainly are under no obligation to explain yourself to me.

well, now that we're done with this conversation, its time for a drink :beerchug:

[Eulux]

grar...if at any time you use a "smiley" during a political argument, you deserve worse than what I can give you.

I just dont like to have arguments with people, I am strong about my beleifs and I have no problem with people having their own ideas. NONE whatsoever. Just dont fucking push your ass on me, just for the sake of trying to say you are right or dissin someone else. Because when two people disagree, they are strong about their ideas, and they are comming from opposite sides of the fence, it turns into nothing but a power struggle. and I have no reason to want other people to agree with me, I just want to state my ideas without being shit on

hmmmm...you reply to a political thread expecting no debate...sounds like what you want is just a bunch of people to agree with you. without deliberation and debate, stagnation takes hold both on forums and in society...if you just want to state your ideas with no questions, buy a diary.

Joseph Stalin (cited from: Wikipedia, brainyquote.com, thinkexist.com, quotationspage.com, worldofquotes.com, quotedb.com, among others. An opposing site votefraud.org, argues the validity of the quote, but recognizes that many people have quoted it, therefor actually discovering the true origin of the quote is virtually impossible... I will continue to look into the site but I would like to say that anyone else saying this quote as origin is news to me!)

Boss Tweed: "As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it?"

as I said...false quote. I can go around paraphrasing people all over the planet, but that doesn't make it mine.

And has no one been voting? I am confused now... So.. these numbers are total bullshit?

....I'd say they weren't too much bullshit...the numbers on both conflict, but none the less prove my point. the first one you showed...50% of people able to vote did in 2000...yeah, that's a shitload. the second one goes 52%...thanks for proving my point.

So can you form an opinion or (as you did) state as a FACT? hell nuuuu! What you did was take the words "most of us" and add your own opinion. I thin kthat with the constand media mindfucks we are being sucked in to beleiving cirtain things, but with all the political/social bullshit out there it is hard to beleive anything nowadays.

I'm just wondering if there was any sort of thing in there worthy of responding to..cause I'm having trouble finding it. anyways...perhaps it would do you some good to not only read some more, but perhaps even think a little.

you get on to me for throwing, "most of us" into a sentence, then go and do the same thing, with less words...and not quite so blatant, I might add. at least I'm upfront about it.

Yes we do have power, which is why so many great peopel could start revolutions, and wake us all up. They do want us to think we are powerless, because if we were to have power it would threaten THEIR power. But all it takes is the will of one. and we all might just be saved.

not sure if you're agreeing with me, or misunderstanding my argument. nevertheless, it contradicts your own arguments behind voting.

and is the wine and spirits why you are being a compelat dumbwad?

noting how I can coherently hold a conversation both in writing and in person while drunk, I'd say it only makes you look more foolish, but...whatever. that was bait, and it tastes good.

And is HIS logic to be debated? And I see no facts in what he is saying, only opinion. So even if I was saying my opinion, at least I recognize it was an opinion. I saw no facts in what he said, maybe some garden-variety-retarded-combacks-supported-by-popularity.

hmmm...anywhere on there I say anything about my post being 100% fact based? the fact that you resort to fact on a philosophical issue leads me to believe that you are over your head, and for that I apologize...I have held back because of your age...however...I was expecting something a little bit more topical than resorting to labeling. and by all means, please debate my logic. all I'm doing is debating yours, and telling you to quit making baseless statements.

If he disagrees with me, I am cool. But immediatly dismissing me and telling me I am wrong does not make me wrong, because I know quite a few people who would agree with me and disagree with him. But Doesnt make me RIGHT, per se. It makes us disagree but it doesnt make one part right and one wrong.

1. not immediately, but after I read your statements which are riddled with contradiction and fallacy. read previous posts and this one to understand where I arrived at these conclusions. then debate those conclusions, or clear things up. I am prone, as most humans are, to misinterpretation.

2. don't use latin terms if you don't understand them.

3. weren't you earlier calling my arguments some retarded-ass-long-drawn-out-ridiculous-exaggerated-majority-nonsense(and yes I am making fun of comfortable...but anyways)? regardless of your disclaimer...as that's not quite what I'm arguing, it's still not quite a good idea to contradict yourself.

MM is good for people who want to take a few steps into politics, because it gets them angry and motivated to do something. So... *shrugs* I dunno, I just think it is pretty cool that he makes movies and helps people out and all that. I dont like his patriotism to the "idealistic, bush-free" America, tho. If your going to be against something, be against it for christs sake.

so not only do you like him, but for reasons he'd disagree with?

end of that clarification and defense...now onto better things...

From my experience the people who don't want to 'argue' or discuss (not just on the internet, but in real life too) are the people who have either a very shaky understanding in their beliefs or have secret doubts but are in denial.

I love you.

and comfortable...wasn't it dostoyevsky that said "The equation 'Two and two equals five' is not without its attractions?"

Whatever, you asshole, I barley read your post. I stand by my opinions, I dont care if you have a problem with it. Everyone has their owns opinions, you stupid bitch.

now, for your education on latin terms, that one is called "ad hominem". now go do a google search...

and what I just did is not really a latin term, but it is called being patronizing.

[SilentOctober]

I like sandwiches, like, a lot I like them. Ma always said there's no ill in the world a good sandwich couldn't fix, and i'll be damned. well, she never said that, i've never called her ma, and a good sandwich sure isn't helping me make rent, but whatever, I like them.

Now, as far as voting, I don't completely understand the situation, far from it, but from what I can see, I don't think it matters. Well, not voting for elected officials anyway, because I've been reading this awesome book on "tactical activism" in which petitions and raising votes on issues to fight problems and injustices on a bigger scale than a project by project basis. I probably shouldn't get into that cause I've not really wrapped myself around it yet, but so far so good.

As far as electing officials, I really can't find any positive reason to do it. If my vote and the votes of the people really counted as far as getting people into office, I sincerely doubt I'd find a candidate that would be up to (if he/she even wanted to) making a positive change away from the currently destructive system of government that runs this country now. And even if i did see that it was all good on paper, there has been a whole lot of shit in my life that has looked good on paper thats ended up just being a pretense to get m y approval while being just as destructive and contridicting to what I believe. Maybe I'm cynical, but shit, I trust a man trying to grasp power that wide even less than...well, less than something I already dont trust alot. : )

Regardless of finding a candidate worth voting for or not, I am not convinced that my vote would even matter. It just seems like a machine as vast and well organized as the american government would not let traditional procedure interupt its agenda, although I am convinced that voting if it was being used to pacify the people would do a pretty damn good job of it as it would be a good way to make people think they are in control of whats going on.

Also, if someone would be so kind as to explain the whole electoral college thing to me I would be grateful. I'm not jokign or being sarcastic, I really just don't get it.

[odin_dax]

Also, if someone would be so kind as to explain the whole electoral college thing to me I would be grateful. I'm not jokign or being sarcastic, I really just don't get it.

The electoral college was properly designed by the Founding Fathers because they knew a popular vote would disenfranchise others. In the electoral college, each state casts a vote equal to the number of representatives in Congress, the two senators and the number of representatives (based on population). There's always a minimum of three votes for any state.

This system works because each candidate has to visit and run for office in each state. If presidential elections were run by popular vote, the smaller states wouldn't have much of a voice. In fact, all a candidate would need to do is visit major cities. The smaller states are generally conservative leaning, like farmers or protestants. Liberals tend to crowd the bigger states (ie lazy, self-centered idealists who don't know how the real world works).

Because the electoral college exists, every state is important. Some elections, like Bush's first, came down to only 1 electoral vote. They all add up, and it's safe to say no president can win election with only all the small, more conservative states or all the large, liberal states. And by "small" and "large" I mean number of votes each state represents.

[theMaxx]

^
Yet the political fragmentation caused by strong state-based identities have been rapidly dissolving since the beggining of the modern age and thus, state-based voting practices are becoming increasingly irrelevant in an age of mass telecommunications.

[SilentOctober]

then what does the popular vcote even make happen? Do the peoples actual votes on election day for president even go toward electing their president? And if so, in what form? and how does each state cast these votes that its given?

[odin_dax]

then what does the popular vcote even make happen? Do the peoples actual votes on election day for president even go toward electing their president? And if so, in what form? and how does each state cast these votes that its given?

On election day, each vote is counted. Whichever candidate has the most, wins the state, and then there's some kind of choosing of the electoral voters by the winning candidate's party. Some states signed into law the electoral voter has to vote for the state's winning candidate. Yes, votes counts. The popular vote decides all other elections, but there are no other nationwide elections.

[odin_dax]

^
Yet the political fragmentation caused by strong state-based identities have been rapidly dissolving since the beggining of the modern age and thus, state-based voting practices are becoming increasingly irrelevant in an age of mass telecommunications.

I disagree. State-based identities are still strong. If it weren't for Tennessee voting against Gore in 2000, he would have won. As I said, all states are represented. Rural, farming communities, whether they be conservative Idaho or liberal Iowa, have a voice. Like the 2/3 approval rule in the house, so the president isn't elected by mass voting, but a majority vote. The Founding Fathers knew exactly what they were doing. It's a good system.

Until the two-party system is gone, it should remain the way it is. Besides, elections rest on the independents. A strong base in any state won't win an election without the independents, and they usually vote for the candidate with whom they identify most with their local (state) issues. That is why Gore lost Tennessee and Bush lost New Hampshire in 2004.

Also, take a look at the electoral results map at http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/electoral.college. There, the results for 2004 and 2000 show. Clicking on 2000, the year Gore won the popular vote, a majority of states voted for Bush. Now, think about how those states and the communities in them differ from those of the blue states. A popular vote would disenfranchise all those concerns, hopes and voices.

In an age of mass telecommunications, as you say, you've certainly missed the apparent identities of the west coast, northeast, south, great plains, rocky mountains and great lakes states. I don't know if that's your own opinion, or that of some professor, but you're wrong.

To beat a dead horse, in California, where I'm from, we have a large conservative base, but our voice is rarely heard in presidential elections, and I sometimes wish things were different, like splitting the electoral votes since California is such a big state, but in the bigger picture, the system works better, even if I don't like the outcome, for reasons previously said.

[DIzzIE]

It's not as if Dread Cthulhu actually needed your pathetic votes, but nonetheless...
http://i16.tinypic.com/5ywwaj4.gif