Time, Infinity and the Universe

[headcase]

Ok, bare with me on this one. I know a lot of its bullshit and the rest is a patchwork of the most basic understanding of some complex theories, but it was fun to think about.

I couldn't sleep last night, and I got to thinking about the universe, and the fact that it has limits, since it started from a point and got bigger. Then I figured, if the universe isn't infinite, then nothing that physically exists inside it can be (on a side note, I figured that the only this that exists in infinity is nothingness, which only exists outside the universe). But because time can be manipulated (by speed and gravity), it exists in the universe, so can't be infinite.
I was pretty pleased with my self after this, but it kinda fell down on analysis.

Of course time isn't infinite, it only existed since (duh) the beginning to time (big bang) until now, and it will continue expanding with the expansion of the universe forever. Looks like my theory fell to shit. Oh well.

Still couldnt sleep though, so I kept going. I remembered the idea that the universe might eventually start to collapse in on itself. Heres where it got interesting. If time progresses forwards as the universe expands, wouldnt it rewind as the universe collapses? Space-time is kind of the same thing, so maybe time progresses because the universe is expanding, as if they are intertwined.

(Another important side note. We can never tell if time is flowing backwards or forwards. Because we only ever exist for an instant at a time, everything would seem normal for that instant, until we regressed another instant and everything would seem normal then. Give me a break, this is hard to explain.)

That was pretty interesting, but I ran with it. Let's start at the start. Theres the Big Bang, the universe expands, Earth forms and cools, you're born, you die, the universe continues to expand until it begins to collapse. Then everything rewinds. Your death, your birth, earth forms and cools, the universe shrinks back into it pre-Big Band singularity.

But what then? You're at year dot. Second dot. Instant dot....... and it explodes again. The Big Bang, the universe expands, Earth forms and cools, youre born, you die, the universe continues to expand........ until it begins to collapse.
Because time rewound to the big bang, everything will be EXACTLY the same as it was before our big bang. So everything should progress the exact same way it did this time. And that should happen the next time, and the next time and the next time............

Which leads to questions about fate, choice and reality that I havent worked out yet.

Comments?

[ComfortablyNumb]

Lol, this exact same shit kleeps me awake at night too. I dont know about anything you said, but try this thought on for size.

Assume for a second that it is true that there are possibly an infinite number of parallel universes, as is theorized by certain theories like M theory (a reworking of string theory) and others. Now, if this were true, since there is an infinite number of alternate universes, there are an infinite number of universes in which you exist. That also means that there are an infinite number of universes where you exist and maybe the only difference ios that some flower in a field in the middle of Siberia is blue instead of purple. Now, what if, in one of these alternate universes the alternate you or me is thinking about the real (as in this universe) you or me, and is thinking about us thinking about them in the alternate universe and vice versa. whoa. blows my mind. n though that might be confusing trying to read...

[ThePrincessOfScam]

Yeahh. I know what you mean.

To me, the thought of infinate space or time is mindblowing.

Time only existing from the beginning of time, doesnt necessarily mean it was created with the big bang.

What is time but a mesurment? Before the big bang there was no one there to mesure. So really time is a created thing. It helps us understand what the hell is going on. Without many simple things from day to day, humans wouldnt understand the world and plumit into psychosis. Time is just another form of mesurment and a way for humans to understand what is happening. Time is mesured by the hours which are mesured by the minutes, that is mesured by the seconds, which is mesured by the days, which is mesured by the planets rotating and shifting in the galaxy around us.

Like before we had an actual CLOCK or sundile system, people just looked at the sun, and depending on how high or low it was, they would estimate how much time they had to work/play/eat/whatever until it became dark. This was their primitive form of mesurment.

Now, with all the technolagy we see that the earth takes 364.5 days to make a full rotation. This is was named a year. We saw that the eart rotates away from the sun, masking half the world in darkness, they broke down the year, and called it a day, saying it lasted for 24 h ours.... I wont continue because I think you get it now but It is all just mesurment. One can say it is a human created thing for mesurment, and it existed since the big bang because that is when the planets began to shift and turn, but no one was there to see this and mesure it.

But time will last until what it is there to mesure dies. Which looks like about one billion years from now (the sun will turn old and into a red giant, the size, being so massivly huge, will engulf the planets and burn them to a crisp, then the sun will blow up, and then god only knows if the big bang will happen all over again. If it does, it means that time will once again be there, waiting for us to mesure.

IT IS PRETTY INSANE, to think about everything just starting all over again. And no trace or anything of us ever having existed.

Who knows if there is other planets hosting life out there. Who knows if there was a big bang before ours.


Everything hasnt been proved by science. Only what has been in our mesurment of time.


Personally, it blows me away to think of infinate space. Time is only relevent to itself,a nd is dependent on so many other tings in order for it to be there. It needss oemthing to mesure, and it needs people to mesure it. Just like we couldnt exist if we did not have the planets, and time to mesure.


But the universe (crazynessssssss) could exist without ANY OF US. It has always been there. Always will be.

Thinking about our universe being like a planet in another universe is pretty cool too. There are theories that this universe is just round, like our planet, and it is like a planet fdloating in another universe which is a planet in another universe and so on and so on and so on



:eek2:




realisticly, only so many things are comprihendable by human minds.

[Esophagus]

I think about things like this constantly. Especially lately, having just read Infinite Crisis (guh, comic books).

Who is to say, if these parallel universes exist, that we exist on all of them? These universes will all have slight differences, caused by many different factors. With these factors coming in to play, the birth of a person may be changed, or just not happen at all.

An example: Lets say there WAS an Adam and Eve, and they existed at the beginning of each universe, on each universes planet Earth. On one Earth, ours, Eve eats the apple, and tempts Adam into doing the same. The world becomes corrupt and a string of events happen over millenias leading to our world today. On another Earth, perhaps one "God" had his eye on while our Eve ate the apple, or where Eve became enticed by some fruit they had yet to discover to that point, one more enticing than the forbidden fruit, Eve is stopped from eatting the apple. Fig leaves continue to be the only form of clothing, Adam and Eve subsist solely on the fruits and vegetables of the garden, and the world ends up completely uninhabited as they never learned of sex.

As for the idea of limited time, and space in the universe, a concept that would have to prove true if theories such as the M theory were correct, would this not prove that there will be a TRUE end to our universe? One that will not be relapsed by another big bang? If there are multiple universes, that are constantly expanding, someday they will reach each other, forming a "system wall" of sorts. At this point, time will be the only growing property of our universe, therefore outrunning the growing rate of our universe. When we have more time than space (overpopulation? armageddon?), assuming that time runs the same in all universes, woudl they not simultaneously come to an end?

This would leave all time and space free, for the creation of new universes, but all previous universes ceasing to exist.

[headcase]

Ok, firstly, I think you misunderstand the nature ot Time, PrincessOfScam. Without delving into the infinite complexity of relativity (which I don't claim to understand), Time does indeed exist outside of human perception. Otherwise, everything would occur at once, and I say that without trying to sound the smartarse.

I'll try to explain using the most basic example. Please, no one highlight the obvious logical gaps in this. If you understand well enough to poke holes in the example then your not the one I'm addressing it too.

Anyway, imagine trying to explain where an object exists in the universe. For simplicity, say you are planning to meet a friend. Instead of saying, "I'll meet you in the park", which would specify where you exist in the three physical dimensions (lenght, width and depth), you would really say, "I will meet you in the park at 5 o'clock". This way, you have specified your lenght, width, depth and time.

Equally, I think you misunderstand the concept of the "big bang", and hence the physical properties of a singularity and the effect that would have on time. It's late, so I'll come back to these tomorrow (when I'll give a brief and not entirely accurate summary). Indeed, there are a number of points I want to make, but I'm much too tired. Damn metaphysics always knocks the shit out of me.

[ThePrincessOfScam]

dude, lol, I just like tlaking about abstract ideas. I am all about the abstract. lol.

I think that my definition of time could appeal to come people and it could be correct in a few areas, and so is yours. i hear where you are, just sayin now that it was just an idea I made up in my own mind. lol

[headcase]

Right, now I get you. :veryhappy .

By the by, I'm just going to steer clear of the M theory altogether. My theory is already a lot of guesswork and long-shots. Let's not complicate it further (although ever see fractals converge? I bet that's what it'd look like :veryhappy ). Equally, I'll over-simplify some of my meta-physics if it isn't relevant.

Anyway, to those of you new to metaphysics. A singularity is a point so tiny it has no dimensions. No lenght or width, it's just a point. But becuase density is mass divided by volume, the density of a singularity is infinite (no dimensions = no volume. Anything divided by 0 is infinity).

There are two kinds of singularity. The type at the centre of blackholes, and the singularity of existance before the big bang. Before the big bang, all of the universe existed as a singularity (or so I'm told), which basically means it didn't exist.
As for blackholes, all you need to understand is that the intense gravity (gravity is related to density, so infinite density means massive gravity) can distort time. For time to be distorted, it has to exist physically.


So; at the instant before the big bang, the universe exists as a singularity. Time doesn't exist because there is nowhere for it to exist. Then bang, the universe is created and expands. Time is created and begins to progress as the universe expands. Everything keeps going until the universe begins to collapse.

If time exists physically and passes as the universe expands (as I believe), then the logic follows that it should regress as the universe collapses. So it should regress all the way back to the pre-big bang singularity.

I think the universe (and time) at around this point will proceed a bit like a number line, each number representing an "instant".

-3_____-2_____-1_____0_____1_____2_____3

0 being the singularity, minus numbers being the regression of time and positive numbers the procession.

It's around 0 that things get really complex. (Sorry for going on about this, by it's for my own sake as well as yours. Writing this out helps me get it clear in my mind).

So we reach 0. The universe is a singularity. Time doesn't exist. But (this is my favourite bit), because time doesn't exist, nothing can ever have existed. If there is no "time", then there is no "past". So the universe doesn't explode "again", it's explodes for both the first time, and has been for infinity. Get your head around that.

But what happens when it explodes (again? Sort of, but not really). In my mind, I think that because time regressed to the singularity, it will proceed just as it did before, like playing a record backwards and forwards. That means we will all be born (see the last bracket) and we'll live our lives just as we are now. Or, it will be completely random and everything will be different.

At least, thats as far as I've gotten up until now. I've posted this on a few other boards and the feedback has allowed me to expand on the theory, so anything here is welcomed.

[ThePrincessOfScam]

But anyhooo. Yeah I will take that line and spraypaint it on the wall at work for all the compelatly retarded emos there 2 see. (BTW Hoppy Easter, now at work we have to wear bunny ears and a bow tie and a tail and give out choco eggs -_-;).

[headcase]

Art by headcase.

-3_____-2_____-1_____0_____1_____2_____3

The end, non-existance and beginning instants of the universe, represented by a number line.

[Esophagus]

WHERE DO WE PUT THE 4?!

[headcase]

You're right, time to lighten the mood......

http://www.timfanelli.com/images/no_idea.jpg